Why GURPS gets TL 5 wrong, like every single other RPG

[DanHoward]

If the weapon is made today but is exactly the same as the one made a century ago then it doesn't somehow become a different item.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

If the weapon is made today but is exactly the same as the one made a century ago then it doesn't somehow become a different item.

It does, however make it an item that a person with modern relevant skills is perfectly familiar with as long as it is still common in their environment. Which means really many items have a range of TLs that they apply to.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

If the weapon is made today but is exactly the same as the one made a century ago then it doesn't somehow become a different item.

Only factory produced weapons could be "exactly" the same or anything like it and if a weapon was no longer fashionable then the factory might well have closed or shifted to other weapons.

As for crafted weapons, a Katana made today would be different from one made in 1900 because it was made individually by different smiths and possibly from different family traditions and so on.

Even such businesslike blades as kukris have shrunk in size since the early part of the century at least according to Bryon Farwell who suggested it was a bit of PCness on behalf of people who don't like thinking about amputations.

[DanHoward]

So? None of these are functionally different enough to acquire a brand new Tech Level or to render a 19th century person incapable of using them.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

A -2 for we defaulters would be enough to result in many a shot foot. I don't think that's realistic at all.
Actually, I would bet that no simple "outdated" gun can be harder to use than a "modern" one with default.

Thing is don't forget the vast majority of shooting in that kind of situation is "non-combat" so that the -2 while pretty significant in combat will get swallowed up by a lot of positive situational mods out on the range.

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

Funny because while I knew they existed back then, nobody I knew owned one before the early 2000s, adults in my family to own one didn't become the majority until the late 2000s, and I still know plenty of people not to have them. There's vast differences between a piece of technology being known, being prevalent, and being universal.

Only there's context specific factors here. Your posting from the US where it took longer due to questions and difference of mobile phone usage in the US at the time. On my small island with it's different context and different infrastructure set up they became ubiquitousness remarkably quickly. (I was walking around with brick in 97' for work, everyone was texting happy new millennium 3 years later)

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

My father in law has a genuine M1911 made in 1914; his father's or grandfather's, I believe. it's fundamentally identical in usage and takedown to my wife's M1991.

True although IIRC it was designed to be. The thing is with the blanket TL difference it ignores designs with longevity beyond one TL (but that can reasonably be adjusted on case by case basisi).

Originally Posted by Crzyraccoon

I think this prove why guns have a /TL.

Only I'd say the physical difference between black powder and shot and a self contained round is far greater than the span of years between them.

The thing is judging by adventure guns the C19th was a transition period* where lots of different systems were tried, by the end a couple had become adopted, and the rest had pretty much fallen by the way side.

Which tends to be why I like the familiarity rules in the revised gun skill pyramid article.

*technologically it was transition period for a lots of things for lots of reasons, something that probably makes TL6 a bit of a movable feast.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Only factory produced weapons could be "exactly" the same or anything like it and if a weapon was no longer fashionable then the factory might well have closed or shifted to other weapons.

As for crafted weapons, a Katana made today would be different from one made in 1900 because it was made individually by different smiths and possibly from different family traditions and so on.

None of which will make any difference in terms of a TL penalty on skill (good or bad construction might qualify for poor or good workmanship bonuses)

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Even such businesslike blades as kukris have shrunk in size since the early part of the century at least according to Bryon Farwell who suggested it was a bit of PCness on behalf of people who don't like thinking about amputations.

A cite would be interesting, the early part of the century does not appear to have been a period of time were anyone was overly concerned with amputations, certainly not for reasons of PCness in a weapon used for hand to hand fighting in combat.

If there is Kukri shrinkage I'm guessing it has more to do with the logistical benefits of carrying a lighter smaller weapon vs. the reduced roll such a weapon plays and the increased amount of other kit that was required to operate.

[Green-Neck]

Don't forget that gurps is a toolkit, and GM's should be using their discression.
If our hero travels back 100 years and is already familiar with the m1911, of course I would give no penalty.
However if our hero is an iPhone app writer, and travels back 150 years and tries to program a Babbage difference engine - they could expect hefty penalties.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I strongly suspect from my own experience that it would be the other way around. Old cars did all sorts of odd things. Like you could accidentally "flood" the engine while you were trying to start it. I haven't seen that bug in years.

I expect you'd be right. Hell, until you mentioned it, I'd forgotten that it USED to be possible to flood an engine.

I bought my first car in 1988, and my father (who was 51 at the time) asked to see under the hood. Upon seeing the mass of tubes and suchlike, he said soberly, "When I was younger, every teenage boy in America could fix his own engine. Half of us could've rebuilt one from scratch."

And only half of that was his bewilderment at not knowing what he was looking at. The other half is that I didn't have any such skills. I grew up in the age where cars started being both reliable enough and complex enough that most of us didn't know much beyond where to put gas, oil and radiator fluid in, how to check your oil gauge and how to change a tire.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

In Holmes stories people are deceived by telegrams with false names as the "signatures". In Saint stories they are deceived by people mimicking voices on low-fidelity telephones. Now all phones have caller ID, so you have to spoof that or get someone's phone to fake a message from them. Before the telephone it was very easy to set and adventure or put a Macguffin or set someone who needed to be rescued in a place where they could not send for help, be warned, etc. After the phone you had to have villains cut the phone line. With mobiles it has become hard to make anyone isolated anywhere. About 1990 I felt that I had was going to have to replace about half of my GMing bag of tricks just because of the mobile phone.

I've known several GMs who've deliberately set "modern" campaigns before the 1990s for just that reason. You wonder what the campaigns of thirty years from now will do, where the concept of instant communication is so ubiquitous that no one would think twice.

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

Funny because while I knew they existed back then, nobody I knew owned one before the early 2000s, adults in my family to own one didn't become the majority until the late 2000s, and I still know plenty of people not to have them. There's vast differences between a piece of technology being known, being prevalent, and being universal.

But these are adventurers we're talking about. Since when do adventurers not have the best cutting edge tech and best equipment they can borrow, beg, buy or steal?

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

...
But these are adventurers we're talking about. Since when do adventurers not have the best cutting edge tech and best equipment they can borrow, beg, buy or steal?

Non-thieves with a budget aren't unheard of.

[smurf]

From GURPS wiki and the difficulty of splitting up human history etc:

• 4 Age of Sail 1450+ Calculus; movable type.
• 5 Industrial Revolution 1730+ Mechanical calculators; telegraph.
• 6 Mechanized Age 1880+ Electrical calculators; telephone and radio;

When we look at different eras we should not look at them as: Transport, Weapons, Power, Biotech but as Power, Transport, Weapons Biotech.

Power

• 4 Improved windmills; belt drives; clockwork.
• 5 . Steam engines; direct current; batteries.
• 6 Steam turbines; internal combustion; alternating current; hydroelectricity.

TL5's great leap is no longer to be dependent on nature by having water and wind mills to determine location of production. Since Newcomer and Watt steam power has pushed the economy into the cities.

In some instances this has been done with the help of bourgeois revolutions: Holland, England, USA, France, et al (those are the classics). Political freedom has replaced the rule of Monarchs (in some instances this is a bit more nuanced but the theme remains the same).

The radical shift from TL4 to TL5 is the centralisation of the production. This is in many cases forced. Towards TL6 is the growth of power and rapid transit.


Transport

• 4 Stagecoach; three-masted sailing ships;
• 5 Steam locomotives; steamboats; early submersibles; balloons and early airships.
• 6 Automobiles; continental railways; ocean liners; submarines; aircraft.

TL5 develops Paddle wheels and screw propellers replace sails, greater use of metals means that ships can be built on a much larger scale than wood. Skills are reduced to simple tasks (riveters, lathe machinists, standard pattern designs). The beginnings of mass production to the interlocking transit to TL6.

Weapons

• 4 Muskets and pikes; horse artillery; naval broadsides.
• 5 Early repeating small arms; rifled cannon; ironclads.
• 6 Smokeless powder; automatic weapons; tanks; combat aircraft.

TL5 makes use of the advances in production via power and transportation to increase the weapon's ability. The Brown Bess does evolve, rifling becomes more common. Again with advances in production and power, the actions are mimicked in TL6's mechanisms.

Biotech

• 4 Optical microscope makes cells visible.
• 5 Germ theory of disease; safe anesthetics; vaccines.
• 6 Antibiotics; blood typing and safe transfusions; heredity; biochemistry.

In order to pursue more efficient production techniques there is a developing science. TL5's ability is to stop cities from being infected and produce a healthier living standards (relative to circumstances). TL6's goes a lot further with vast improvements in health.