Why GURPS gets TL 5 wrong, like every single other RPG

[Flyndaran]

WWII was certainly a cultural watershed. While not technically tech level related, those go further toward creating unique period pieces than any gadget, in my opinion.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

A -2 for we defaulters would be enough to result in many a shot foot. I don't think that's realistic at all.
Actually, I would bet that no simple "outdated" gun can be harder to use than a "modern" one with default.

Here is my muzzle-loading flintlock pistol, and some black powder (in standard and priming grades), wadding, and a lead ball. Have fun.

Bill Stoddard

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Here is my muzzle-loading flintlock pistol, and some black powder (in standard and priming grades), wadding, and a lead ball. Have fun.

Bill Stoddard

I love sarcasm more than most. But in my previous post I mentioned how loading may be difficult.
The real brunt of experience would be in getting fast doing all those odd maneuvers.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Antheus

. Because of my lack of practical knowledge in this regard i do not have any idea whether -2 for unfamiliarity (and no less than eight hours to remove it) between significantly different revolvers .

See, that "significantly different" is the magic phrase and there's not that much different at all, much less "significant".

For example, perfectly modern revolvers (Double action swing-out cylinder) date to at least 1896. The top-break revolver (i.e. Webleys and similar) go back to the late 1860s.

The difference between these takes about 30 seconds to explain when you have an actual gun to demonstrate with.

Probably closer to significant is the difference between Single Action (cock hammer then pull trigger) and double Action (pull trigger only).This is even simpler to explain.

Then there are caplock revolvers and it would take a little longer to show how to reload those. Doing it _well_ might actually take 8 hours.

So if you start making Guns require Specialization by just type rater than type and TL you get only (Revolvers) with no penalties to _shoot_ the things at all. Swing out cylinder versus ejection portal might be -2 but only to reloading and caplock might be -4 but again only to reload.

When presented with a Ready revolver there wouldn't be any penalties to fire, at least for the first shot. Note also that the Familiarity penalty for reloading caplocks goes only one way. People trained to handle caplocks will not be bothered by handling higher tech revolvers at all.

Even between other types of guns there would be little effect on the DX-based roll to fire a Ready gun. A matchlock musket that needed a rest would be awkward if handed to a beginner but so would a .50 Barrett off the bipod. This would be the Bulk and not the TL differences.

So no, dividing up Guns by TL makes so little sense that it's practically inexplicable.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The breakpoint that bugs me is the one between 6 and 7. The middle of World War II? Really?

There was an enormous amount of change during the war. The US saw less of it, because it didn't have large outdated ground or air forces that it was forced to employ anyway, it built up its forces according to modern standards. The RAW does give some problems for campaigns set during the war. Here's a house rule that seems to work OK in practice.

[Antheus]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

So no, dividing up Guns by TL makes so little sense that it's practically inexplicable.

It seems like DX penalty for TL was conceived for skills like Driving or Sewing (where penalty for operation is definitely reasonable) and then applied to Guns because compared to other DX\TL skill they are a fringe case (even if you will likely see more rolls against Guns then rolls against Driving times rolls against Sewing).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Antheus

It seems like DX penalty for TL was conceived for skills like Driving or Sewing (where penalty for operation is definitely reasonable) and then applied to Guns because compared to other DX\TL skill they are a fringe case (even if you will likely see more rolls against Guns then rolls against Driving times rolls against Sewing).

Do remember that the Guns skill represents not just shooty stuff, but also Immediate Action, routine maintenance, identification etc.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Do remember that the Guns skill represents not just shooty stuff, but also Immediate Action, routine maintenance, identification etc.

Yes, but few of those are DX-based and don't affect the ability to aim and fire a Ready weapon.. Many of them are also less than an 8 hour Familiarity to learn. That probably puts them below the Gurps level of resolution.

[Antheus]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Do remember that the Guns skill represents not just shooty stuff, but also Immediate Action, routine maintenance, identification etc.

This is true, but IQ-based use of DX-based do net benefit from optional rule from High-Tech and therefore even if you familiarized yourself with old hardware good enough to shoot at full skill you will still suffer from TL penalties to Immediate Action.

In any case, while i think that eight hours of practice is highly suspicious figure for familiarization (and if shooting straight is only part of that time it should be possible to spend less time to remove penalty from shooting only), the Basic Set contains a rule that if you have 6 familiarities ( that is, 3 points in skill) you can roll against your skill level when encountering new equipment, and on success you are familiar with something close enough. Since professionals will usually have 12+ in skill (and adventurers are likely to have 14+) that will mean downgrading unfamiliarity penalties to the occasional annoyance.

[Celjabba]

I wonder if the easiest solution may be to allow someone to learn a skill at multiple TL at once if the teaching and practice include them, rather than listing familiarities.
For example, and going by personal experience, there is a huge difference between a 1950 mecanical printing press and a 2010 computer-assisted one, and imho they require separate professional skill, TL7 and TL8.
And nowadays, TL8 training is unlikely to cover the old monsters, which are no longer produced either.
Anyone trained on only one will need some time to master the other, more than if just discovering a unfamiliar model of the same TL.
In gurps term, you would have a TL penalty and a familiarity one. Both going away with training.
If however you learned with both at the same time, I could see writing it down in Gurps as professional skill (printer, tl 7-8) instead of having to pay for both skill separately.
Same with gun. Unless you trained only with older or recent guns, I don't think it would hurt to write it down as gun(handgun,tl 6-7) rather than listing the models that you mastered enough to offset the TL penalty for them or buying the skill twice.

Celjabba