[Martial Arts] The Stamp Kick

[TheOneRonin]

I recently had a heated discussion with my GM about the Stamp Kick technique in Martial Arts.

It defaults to Karate -3 and either needs to target an opponent who is prone, or the foot/leg of a standing opponent.

My GM said that targeting the foot of a standing opponent incurs another -4 for a total of -7. My stance was that since you are striking a low target with a low kick, you shouldn't incur the additional -4 penalty.

Which one of us has it right, and is there some rules we miss that spell that out? -7 to stomp on someone's food seems way more difficult than it is in real life. We do it all in the time in my Modern Arnis class, and it wasn't a difficult skill to learn.

[gilbertocarlos]

The total is -5 for the leg, -7 for the foot. However, you should probably do it when he is down, so you can target even the head.

[vierasmarius]

A Stamp Kick definitely still takes the hit-location penalty. Keep in mind that performing a move in a safe setting like a class will often be at at least +8 (Telegraphic Attack and All-Out: Determined). In combat, both fighters are moving around, trying to maintain defenses and situational awareness, etc. I wouldn't take ease of use in a classroom as a good indicator of ease of use on the battlefield.

One optional rule to look at would be the alternate modifiers for different postures. For example, a fighter in a standing position removes -1 from the hit location penalty for kicking the leg or foot of a standing target. Your GM would of course have to okay this, and should probably implement them entirely or not at all.

[Mailanka]

A foot has the same penalty to hit as the hand. The fact that it has a penalty is not because it's far away, but because it's quite small. If you knocked someone over, their face wouldn't drop from -5 to -1 or something similar.

As for it being "way harder than you practiced," practice is different than a fight. It gives you a +4 at least. Secondly, most of the time people talk about Stamp Kicks, they're picturing All-Out Stamp Kicks, thus gain another +4. Between these two, you'd end up at a +1 despite being completely untrained in it. That seems pretty reasonable.

GURPS is, in my opinion, takes a little too dim a view on hit locations in general, especially in melee combat. Punching a face in GURPS is probably too hard when compared to real life. That said, the problem is not that stamp kick deserves a bonus, but that everything is a little hard to hit. If you change that rule, you should be aware that people are more likely to target high priority locations, and thus much of this is there for balance (for example, a stamp kick to the foot is almost always enough to cripple it, which is enough to stun the target and knock him over, and if you're already good at stamping, you can shift your next target to the neck. Very strong)

[Tomsdad]

Yep it's -7 (or -6 if you use the posture rules) assuming you going from default*. A foot is a small hard target that will probably be moving quickly and in any number of possible directions in a combat situation. Actually this last is a point a lot of martial arts training involves feet moving in pretty standard steps and stances. Also kicks are not as naturally accurate as punches

TBH foot stamps are pretty good when taking some one by surprise out of combat by attacking out of their eye line (which GURPS doesn't really have rules), or when your opponent is on the floor suffering form defence & attack penalties (and possible shock pens fro how he got there) and you make telegraphed and or determined attacks.

*if you buy of the stamp technique its -3, if you go all out and buy TA technique you get it down to -1 (but at this point you've probably gone past the point of reasonable return on your points investment)

[Vynticator]

Might vertical difference apply here? Iirc you get bonuses to hit the head if you are elevated relative to your foe. If the foot were the closer target (ie. in this case, because the foe is grounded and the feet are close by) you might give an equivalent bonus?

Also, the OP should remember the downed foe has massive penalties to hit back and to defend.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Vynticator

Might vertical difference apply here? Iirc you get bonuses to hit the head if you are elevated relative to your foe. If the foot were the closer target (ie. in this case, because the foe is grounded and the feet are close by) you might give an equivalent bonus?

Also, the OP should remember the downed foe has massive penalties to hit back and to defend.

In theory? Yes

In practice, height difference, Size difference, and Posture difference combine horribly. (and some individually have issues without a bit of work).


I think it helps if you view the benefits of hitting someone prone on the floor are mainly given by their penalties to defend rather than some significantly increased direct chance of you hitting them (you can argue the penalty to defend is an indirect improvement to the chances of hitting anyway).

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

*if you buy of the stamp technique its -3, if you go all out and buy TA technique you get it down to -1 (but at this point you've probably gone past the point of reasonable return on your points investment)

Stamp kick is actually a great trick and one of my favorites when I'm playing a burly brawler type (as I often do). Do a Judo Throw, and follow it up with a Stamp Kick to the neck. You can even take the perk Finishing Move*, and take the stamp kick from Thrust +1 to +2, and then spend 1 fatigue for +2 more. You're at Thrust+4, x2 crushing from the neck against a target who's at something like -6 to defend (-4 from stun, -2 from prone), which is game over, man, game over.

The fact that Stamp Kick can also be used to crush a foot in the opening move of the fight and thus immediately cause a stun and knockdown just makes it even better. But I agree that specializing in attacking the foot is probably a waste of time. The advantage of Stamp Kick is its flexibility in where it's targeting.

*This and the following only works on stunned targets. I'm aware that a simply judo throw doesn't stun a target. The previous combo is unrelated to the effectiveness of the latter, which can happen after any stunning effect

[Edris]

The answer is inbetween, posture modifying hit location is detailed in Martial Arts P.98-99. If two men are standing, it is slightly easier to target his legs and feet. Other than that, techniques will specify if you ignore the hit location for what you're doing.

There's also a lot of modifiers if you're lying down and kicking as well, if that should come up.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Stamp kick is actually a great trick and one of my favorites when I'm playing a burly brawler type (as I often do). Do a Judo Throw, and follow it up with a Stamp Kick to the neck. You can even take the perk Finishing Move*, and take the stamp kick from Thrust +1 to +2, and then spend 1 fatigue for +2 more. You're at Thrust+4, x2 crushing from the neck against a target who's at something like -6 to defend (-4 from stun, -2 from prone), which is game over, man, game over.

The fact that Stamp Kick can also be used to crush a foot in the opening move of the fight and thus immediately cause a stun and knockdown just makes it even better. But I agree that specializing in attacking the foot is probably a waste of time. The advantage of Stamp Kick is its flexibility in where it's targeting.

*This and the following only works on stunned targets. I'm aware that a simply judo throw doesn't stun a target. The previous combo is unrelated to the effectiveness of the latter, which can happen after any stunning effect

Nasty (I like it)!