Impossible to Subdue?

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by GURPS page 118

For instance, "automatically makes all normal Vision rolls" is about as useful as "automatically makes all Fright Checks," so you might price that ability along the lines of Unfazeable, for 15 points.

Acute Vision costs 2/level.
There are penalties to Vision rolls.
Automatically makes all normal Vision rolls is suggested to cost 15 points.

Fearlessness costs 2/level.
There are penalties to Fright Checks.
Automatically makes all Fright Checks (Unfazable) costs 15 points.

Hard to Subdue costs 2/level.
There are penalties to Consciousness rolls.
Would it be reasonable for “automatically makes all Consciousness rolls” to cost 15 points?

In the case of “Knockdown and Stunning” it would make you immune to the effects of “a failure by 5 or more, or any critical failure”. As for Hazards, you’d be immune to Comas and Unconsciousness (maybe Sleep, as it’s listed under Hard to Subdue, under Advantages that Aid Resistance, Powers page 169), the same way Injury Tolerance: No Vitals makes you immune to Heart Attacks.

[laserdog]

My biggest worry about an "automatic" hard to subdue is that the rules for someone falling unconscious from their wounds (making consciousness checks) sort of imply that, "you'll eventually fail them, even if you have HT 16".

Vision and Fright aren't even tied to that "roll til you fail" sort of mechanic.

It may be different from a "balance" perspective to give a character the ability to walk around at below 0 HP for hours at a time...

However, I suppose 10 pt Recovery does very nearly the same thing. Just with the person falling unconscious, waking up almost immediately, only to fall unconscious again... That sort of stumbling critically injured character like that makes sense to me.

In any case, between all the "Immunity to Common" [15] and "Recovery [10]" 15 pts definitely seems to be in "the ballpark" for that ability.

[Rowan]

Immunity to being subdued? I don't know. I'm not sure many people would want that for their character. Wouldn't it sort of make them like those psycho killers we used to see in the slasher films in the 80's? The fellows you had to just chop into a million bits to kill?

Seems kind of a scary advantage to have. Once your enemies find out about it. I have this horrible image of a character with immunity to subdual being held down by three strong body guards while a four stabs you again..and again...and again...and again...and again....and again....and again....

Until your body finally gives up and dies. All while being awake, and hm..would immunity to subdual include not being able to be stunned? Wouldn't that make you unable to experience shock?

So while the fellow to the left feels the first stab and then shock takes over...you get the privelage of feeling each and every stab as if it were the first. Over and over and over again, until your body just 'gives' out and you die. All the while being awake.

All for 15 points? Sounds like the perfect advantage to torture a character with. XD

[Stephane_Theriault]

Originally Posted by Rowan

Immunity to being subdued? I don't know. I'm not sure many people would want that for their character. Wouldn't it sort of make them like those psycho killers we used to see in the slasher films in the 80's? The fellows you had to just chop into a million bits to kill?

I'd take it in a jiffy. If you have regular combat in your game, not having to roll each second to stay conscious when in negative 0 HT is extremely useful.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Ellie the Technomancer

I'd take it in a jiffy. If you have regular combat in your game, not having to roll each second to stay conscious when in negative 0 HT is extremely useful.

Oh, no argument on that point. It just seems like that drawback could be pretty horrific. :D

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Ellie the Technomancer

I'd take it in a jiffy. If you have regular combat in your game, not having to roll each second to stay conscious when in negative 0 HT is extremely useful.

Too useful to only cost 15 points though? What about Immunity to Unconsciousness [30]?

[Stephane_Theriault]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Too useful to only cost 15 points though? What about Immunity to Unconsciousness [30]?

Hard to Subdue is 2 points per level. For a normal HT 10 people, raising it to 16 would cost 12 points, and you'll only have 1.5% to 2% chance of failing. I don't think eliminating the last 2% is worth a whopping 17 points, nor is it worth a small 3 points. If was to allow it, I'd probably go with 20 or 25 points myself.

If you want to go the Resistant way, you better eliminate H2S alltogether and go with Resistant (Subduing; +3), Resistant (Subduing, +8) and Immunity(Subduing).

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by Rowan

Until your body finally gives up and dies. All while being awake, and hm..would immunity to subdual include not being able to be stunned? Wouldn't that make you unable to experience shock?

No, I don't think, Hard to Subdue includes protection from Stunning or Shock. While it protects you from the possible unconsciousness that could result from things like a Major Wound, I don't think it should simply add its bonus to the whole roll, as it would make you hard to Knockdown as well, which is not in the spirit of the Advantage, I think.

Instead, I treat it as an effective bonus, but only for the purpose of telling if you have failed by 5 or Critically Failed.

Besides this - relatively minor - point: No, I don't think that 15 points is balanced for this Advantage. I'd be much more inclined to give a character 5 levels, making it virtually impossible to knock them out.
Combined with my House Rule (Critical Success on a roll to stay conscious means you don't have to roll again unless you are injured further, just like having recovered from unconsciousness), they may well stay awake a LONG time. Just changing their chance of a Critical Success from 4 to 6 (or potentially even more, if you use expanded Crits) will make it much more likely they'll Critically Succeed than fail.

That, plus Recovery (20 points all up), will keep someone really hard to keep down.
You could still describe them as never losing consciousness, as "unconscious" specifically includes the possibility of "totally incapacitated by pain and injury" (p.423).
For a robot or zombie or such, they could just be staggered for a minute by their injuries.

Which raises the point: Does Hard to Subdue include a bonus to recover from unconsciousness? I'd say yes; which means that - even if you beat this person down to where a normal person would be knocked out, they'll just fall down, unmoving, for a minute, then get back up.
Even if they're beaten to the point that someone will die, they'll still almost certainly rise in 12 minutes.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by The Benj

No, I don't think, Hard to Subdue includes protection from Stunning or Shock. While it protects you from the possible unconsciousness that could result from things like a Major Wound, I don't think it should simply add its bonus to the whole roll, as it would make you hard to Knockdown as well, which is not in the spirit of the Advantage, I think.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by The Benj

Instead, I treat it as an effective bonus, but only for the purpose of telling if you have failed by 5 or Critically Failed.

Makes sense.

Originally Posted by The Benj

Besides this - relatively minor - point: No, I don't think that 15 points is balanced for this Advantage.

What about Immunity to Unconsciousness [30]?

Originally Posted by The Benj

I'd be much more inclined to give a character 5 levels, making it virtually impossible to knock them out.

5 levels won’t do that if they get hit in the Face, Groin, or Vitals (-5 to the roll) or Eye and Skull (-10 to the roll). And you’ll still fall unconsciousness eventually from being at 0HP or below.

Start Edit

Originally Posted by The Benj

You could still describe them as never losing consciousness, as "unconscious" specifically includes the possibility of "totally incapacitated by pain and injury" (p.423).

That isn't the effect I'm looking for. I want to know how much it would be worth to be immune to this effect?

End Edit

Originally Posted by The Benj

Which raises the point: Does Hard to Subdue include a bonus to recover from unconsciousness?

I think it should, but there doesn’t seem to be anything to support that point of view

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Rowan

Immunity to being subdued? I don't know. I'm not sure many people would want that for their character. Wouldn't it sort of make them like those psycho killers we used to see in the slasher films in the 80's? The fellows you had to just chop into a million bits to kill?

Seems kind of a scary advantage to have. Once your enemies find out about it. I have this horrible image of a character with immunity to subdual being held down by three strong body guards while a four stabs you again..and again...and again...and again...and again....and again....and again....

Until your body finally gives up and dies. All while being awake, and hm..would immunity to subdual include not being able to be stunned? Wouldn't that make you unable to experience shock?

So while the fellow to the left feels the first stab and then shock takes over...you get the privelage of feeling each and every stab as if it were the first. Over and over and over again, until your body just 'gives' out and you die. All the while being awake.

All for 15 points? Sounds like the perfect advantage to torture a character with. XD

True, but you can get the same effect with a high level of Regeneration and Recovery, but that's not a reason not to take them.