Low-Tech Democracy.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Now that could actually be made a useful plot point, by allowing the PCs to have Pet The Dog moments. And so on. The problem is that to be anything like reality the PCs will be as shocked and possibly as sanctimonious as Cordelia was in Barrayar and if they are written up as natives that will make it hard to roleplay.

Isn't that assuming the PCs are all ignorant foreigners (which could be fun)?


If the players are playing natives, but don't care about engaging with and RPing the culture their characters are supposed to be part of, why are they playing natives?

That latter approach would cheese off Peter Knutsen. It would annoy me, too.
I'm going to run a game set in a world, I expect players to treat the world as a ''real'' place for gameplay.

YMMV, natch.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Isn't that assuming the PCs are all ignorant foreigners (which could be fun)?


If the players are playing natives, but don't care about engaging with and RPing the culture their characters are supposed to be part of, why are they playing natives?

That latter approach would cheese off Peter Knutsen. It would annoy me, too.
I'm going to run a game set in a world, I expect players to treat the world as a ''real'' place for gameplay.

YMMV, natch.

Oh, quite, quite. And like I said if the OPs purpose is the fun of worldbuilding it is an intriguing idea. If he just wants to make the PCs comfortable it is not.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Oh, quite, quite. And like I said if the OPs purpose is the fun of worldbuilding it is an intriguing idea. If he just wants to make the PCs comfortable it is not.

I'm not sure it would make me comfortable, depending on what he thinks ''Western, liberal values'' really are...

But, yeah, I'm not quite sure what he's going for.

[tantric]

Not sure how helpful this is, but I thought I'd throw it in. Although probably a bit embellished, the Kikuyu as described by Jomo Kenyatta in Facing Mt. Kenya were reasonably democratic. All things considered, he isn't a reliable source, but every ethnography I've read about the Kikuyu agrees that they were lead by an elected council of elders and had something like an unwritten Bill of Rights. The best bit is the alternation of generations, so that governing body automatically dissolves and is replaced completely every 15 years or so. The cultural understanding/Bill of Rights made it clear there could be no nobles of any kind in the tribe.

principles of government
1.freedom for people to aquire and develop land under family ownership
2.universal citizenship based on maturity. males go thru init 16-18, females 10-14
3.all initiated men and women are full members of the tribe, there are no kings or nobles
4.the government is in the hands of a council of elders, determined by age-grades
5.all men between 18-40 are part of the standing militia
6.in times of need the government can ask the people for sheep, goats or cattle in rotation for sacrifices
7.the community is divided into alternating generations, mwangi and maina, which hold power of government for 30 yrs
8.all men and women must marry, unmarried men may not be elders. women have the same social status as their husbands.
9.rules and regulations are clearly defined and written down.

For an illiterate early iron age people, it's not bad.

[jason taylor]

You can require every clan to have a trained Lawspeaker.

Also have the law committed to verse-and require every citizen to memorize it.

[jason taylor]

How do you have a law that says "women have the same social status as men" or for that matter "anyone has the same social status as anyone?" Certainly not a civil law guaranteed by public force. Perhaps a religious law of that nature.

[tantric]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

For an illiterate people to have a constitutional axiom requiring that their laws be written down is very bad.

Sorry, that was from my Ubantu's version of the Gikuyu. I don't remember what Kenyatta said - probably something pithy and revisionist. The man was trying to portray his people as the natural leaders of a democratic Kenya. First generation post-colonial tribalism, before people realized that tribalism is a monster force best suppressed. I've heard so many times from well meaning Americans who think Africa's problems are because the colonialists drew the boarders arbitrarily and that everything would be fine if everyone got a homeland....it seems to be an American perspective based on our basic like of tribal background.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by tantric

Sorry, that was from my Ubantu's version of the Gikuyu. I don't remember what Kenyatta said - probably something pithy and revisionist. The man was trying to portray his people as the natural leaders of a democratic Kenya. First generation post-colonial tribalism, before people realized that tribalism is a monster force best suppressed. I've heard so many times from well meaning Americans who think Africa's problems are because the colonialists drew the boarders arbitrarily and that everything would be fine if everyone got a homeland....it seems to be an American perspective based on our basic like of tribal background.

Suppressing tribalism would require a Mao. But even in Europe there are towns who are on the wrong side of the border from their language base.

[tantric]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Suppressing tribalism would require a Mao. But even in Europe there are towns who are on the wrong side of the border from their language base.

Not that bad - Marshall Tito did it, and made socialism vaguely profitable to boot. He was probably an alien transvestite robot, but still.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by tantric

Not that bad - Marshall Tito did it, and made socialism vaguely profitable to boot. He was probably an alien transvestite robot, but still.

Tito had to ride to power at the end of six years of mutual ethnic cleansing and Nazi tyranny. He didn't need to be a Mao because the times provided it. He was also putting his jackboot on a far smaller portion of the Earth then Africa.