DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler

[Novembermike]

Originally Posted by JMason

my rules are that if you create a new character it starts at the prior character's starting value + half of the CP gained on the prior character

Found the problem. I wouldn't allow a character to lag by more than 10-20 points in a game like this. The characters are too similar to make it interesting.

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by JMason

The SB bought up his ST by quite a bit (3 or 4 levels) as he's earned CP. The Knight is much lower for a few reasons: He is a replacement character (my rules are that if you create a new character it starts at the prior character's starting value + half of the CP gained on the prior character), that player's job often keeps him out, so he has missed more session than the other characters.

High defense monsters tend to neutralize most of the group, not just the SB. The Knight uses an axe, so he's out. The Cleric likes to get into the action when done buffing, so he MIGHT throw a sunbolt, but is just as likely to draw his morning star. That leaves it up to the wizard who again, is a missile spell guy. So this leads to very slow combats that the players get tired of.

Still, maybe a few more "slogs" is what it will take to get them to see that maybe diversity is a good thing (since my repeated telling them hasn't worked out so well).

For high-defence monsters, it does not have to have all defences high. In this case, a few monsters with a high Parry but a lower dodge or block will cause the wizard – missile spell guy – to shine. And this is not a bad thing. A few encounters like this might make the cleric notice that sometimes a sunbolt is a better option than drawing his morning star. You could even make the high-Parry monster be an enemy swashbuckler…

Another encounter to try is arrows + terrain features. Have foes shoot down at the party from a high ledge, or the other side of a pit, or even through the bars of a gate – the gate could be battered down, but while the fighters are doing that they are being shot at from the other side. Several archers at once cannot be parried and if his Retreat + Dodge is 14 that means his Dodge is 11 vs being shot. Plus, if the Swashbuckler has limited DR (common for Swashbucklers) then arrows will hurt him. Hopefully this will be an area where the heavily armoured Knight’s ability to shrug off arrows and the missile-spell Wizard’s ability to return fire will get better results (and possibly the Cleric’s ability to heal them).

Have intelligent monsters: have a few observers in the background spy on the party during the first fight in a dungeon, and report back that the Swashbuckler is the greatest threat and thus a priority target. Unless the knight is really good at aggressively tanking, the Swashbuckler can be in trouble, and if the knight is really good at aggressively tanking, then it means the Knight shines. Either way, it is a win.

Even if your monsters don't know that the Swashbuckler is a walking blender, does it have the inclination to get close enough to find out? Also, even really weak monsters like goblins could make this work.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by JMason

He has Extra Attack (not DWA), he's turning one of them into a rapid strike. I've never seen anything that implies this isn't allowed.

Yes, he only rolls one deceptive attack per turn, but that is usually enough. With his high skill he often makes this an called shot to the leg or other area to take the monster out even if it isn't killed outright.



The SB bought up his ST by quite a bit (3 or 4 levels) as he's earned CP. The Knight is much lower for a few reasons: He is a replacement character (my rules are that if you create a new character it starts at the prior character's starting value + half of the CP gained on the prior character), that player's job often keeps him out, so he has missed more session than the other characters.

High defense monsters tend to neutralize most of the group, not just the SB. The Knight uses an axe, so he's out. The Cleric likes to get into the action when done buffing, so he MIGHT throw a sunbolt, but is just as likely to draw his morning star. That leaves it up to the wizard who again, is a missile spell guy. So this leads to very slow combats that the players get tired of.

Still, maybe a few more "slogs" is what it will take to get them to see that maybe diversity is a good thing (since my repeated telling them hasn't worked out so well).




I've said this to my group, I've posted lists of useful spells, I've all but forbidden missile spells, but it hasn't gotten through.


Again, thanks for the advice everyone. I've got this thread open in one window and am working on my next dungeon in the other!

After reading all of this, I had a rather extensive post, but I think I'll just say this:

The problem is not that the Swashbuckler is too powerful. I've seen far worse (and easily challenged far worse) in my CBR campaign. In fact, I doubt he'd really do all that well in CBR. The problem is that the party is playing chicken with you, intentionally or not. Since the Swashbuckler is the most powerful member of the party, and since by your own admission you discourage most of the magey attack options, then the casters only really have the option to buff/debuff the SB, and the Knight is basically useless, then anything that the SB cannot defeat by definition destroys the party. So you have a binary situation: Either you make it weak enough for the SB to kill, or you get a TPK.

That's the problem.

You need to encourage diversity, but I'm going to leave it to you to figure out how to do that, since I largely disagree with so many of the choices that you've laid out that I'm not sure how to suggest any changes without sounding like I'm ripping up your entire style and throwing it out the window, which is seldom helpful.

[pfharlock]

Originally Posted by JMason

He has Extra Attack (not DWA), he's turning one of them into a rapid strike. I've never seen anything that implies this isn't allowed.

Yes, he only rolls one deceptive attack per turn, but that is usually enough. With his high skill he often makes this an called shot to the leg or other area to take the monster out even if it isn't killed r!

please, excuse me if these points have already been stated...

If you read the rules for rapid strike carefully, they can only apply to one of your attacks. I used to make this mistake too thinking if I have extra attack I can apply rapid strike to both and get 4 attacks. in reality, you only get 3 attacks with extra attack and rapid strike.


also, have your bad guys have high skill as well and use deceptive attack on your swashbuckler, then his high defense will evaporate.

this is in addition to using suggestions that others have made about giving them armor and using magic on him. some version of a paralyze spell or area of effect mist trap ought to slow him down a little.

I love building swashbucklers, it's one of the first really good builds I learned to make, but then as a gm I had to figure out how to take them apart as well.

ohhh, also, don't forget ranged weapons, can't parry them, and even with that high dodge he has, an Elvin marksman with skill 25 or higher as they are sometimes wont to have will neutralize the dodge nicely (provided they use appropriate levels of deceptive attack). sick a party of Elvin archers on him, or pixies with blow guns with similar skill, he doesn't stand a chance.

[Xplo]

This may be a moot point now, but...

The ultimate object of an RPG is to have fun. When you talk about your player who has to work sometimes and can't always make it, what I hear is that you've got a player who is probably okay at meeting his social obligations when he can (i.e. he's not just flaking) but has to deal with Grownup Life - so when he does make it in, he gets punished by having a less effective character to play with.

That's probably fair to the other players - their PCs earned those points! - but it's no fun for him.

If he does manage to stay in the game, consider bumping his knight up to current point totals and then giving him the same point awards that you're giving the others henceforth.

As for the rest of the party, go ahead and give them challenges they don't have the abilities or resources to beat - and when they can't beat them, they can't get the loot or quest rewards associated with them, either. It's not unfair as long as they have good advance warning or an escape route for when they realize they're woefully unequipped for a particular challenge. After a few sessions half-filled with encounters they can't win just by stabbing it with a saber 58 times, they should start to realize the value of diversity. Bonus points (for you) if one of them actually complains out loud about not having the magical weapon they need to beat X and you take the opportunity to say "well, you guys used to have magical weapons... whatever happened to those?"