DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler

[Pahn]

Limit his ability to retreat by drawing him into heroic charges/move and attack. Attack him with flails and have enemies be equally skilled, so they can use 5 levels of deceptive attack. This forces him to use a dodge at significant penalty. That 14 turns into something much more hittable.

Use range to your advantage. As he's sprinting towards the threat, he doesn't get to retreat. Grapple him. Target his weak stats with spells. Use explosion damage, poison, area effect, etc. Use extreme heat or cold.

I don't get why he gets 5 attacks, though I'm not familiar with DF. Basic RAW for Extra Attack says you only get to rapid strike one of your attacks (B54). It also says you're attacking with each hand, so unless he's dual wielding sabers, he's going to be doing less damage with the other attack. If he uses AoA (Double) and Rapid Strike, he gets 4 attacks by my count...and no active defenses.

[Anthony]

The fact that the swashbuckler has been allowed to increase weapon skill to 24 is probably a big part of the issue; point for point weapon skill is the most potent combat ability in the game, to the extent that PCs should be restricted in how many points they're allowed to put in it (this also comes up as a problem for the Knight). A starting swashbuckler with ridiculous luck and extra attack 1 can have a maximum skill of 19 (by also taking +1 DX).

[sir_pudding]

Unless his Will and IQ are much higher than the template, what about enemies with spells like Charm?

[Joseph Paul]

I am thinking if he is an Army of One let him encounter a well oiled platoon of lesser mortals that can bring a challenge.

A group that is in a position to use longer reach weapons to keep him from closing.

Net users. They don't have to be thrown over him. Tossed across the floor they would define areas that are dangerous for him to traverse and limit his movement. They could topple him or even bind him if the net guys are using Wait well.

Multiple-armed opponents (Land dwelling octopi? Insectoid races?) that can match his attacks and parries.

Make his opponents smart enough to attack him on terrain that is not conducive to him Dodging so freely. Perhaps they all throw flasks of oil (flammable or not) or caltrops to their front. Or behind him.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

Net users. They don't have to be thrown over him. Tossed across the floor they would define areas that are dangerous for him to traverse and limit his movement. They could topple him or even bind him if the net guys are using Wait well.

Multiple-armed opponents (Land dwelling octopi? Insectoid races?) that can match his attacks and parries.

Make his opponents smart enough to attack him on terrain that is not conducive to him Dodging so freely. Perhaps they all throw flasks of oil (flammable or not) or caltrops to their front. Or behind him.

If he's a one-skill wonder, grappling stuff that pulls ST into play can be pretty vicious.

[Joseph Paul]

Douglas - and I was just thinking "Doesn't DF have anything that can glue his foot to the ground?"

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by JMason

Part of the problem is that the group lacks the diversity to deal with other challenges. If the swashbuckler can't handle it, none can. The wizard and cleric specialize in some buffs and missile spells. The Knight is just a heavily armored fighter. None have magic items (they've sold quest rewards magic weapons).

As others have said, this is 95% of the problem. The party has a hammer and as long as all you give them are nails they're just going to buff the hammer. Give them stuff they aren't efficient at until they get efficient at it. Train them that doom children happen, erupting slime in a river happen, and bugbears happen, and they'll learn the cat-boy swashbuckler isn't particularly perceptive, water-loving, or good at turning demons and the rest of the party is going to have to step up.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

As others have said, this is 95% of the problem. The party has a hammer and as long as all you give them are nails they're just going to buff the hammer. Give them stuff they aren't efficient at until they get efficient at it. Train them that doom children happen, erupting slime in a river happen, and bugbears happen, and they'll learn the cat-boy swashbuckler isn't particularly perceptive, water-loving, or good at turning demons and the rest of the party is going to have to step up.

The problem is that they've become so hyperfocused on the hammer that if you hand them a screw, or a bolt, they just fall apart on you. I'm not sure at this point that you can fix it.

BUT the ridiculously complex structure of GURPS Magic may just save you. Since every mage must take a long list of interesting effects to get to what he really wants, chances are the mages are more flexible than they realize. Look over those spell lists and look for challenges that those spells can fix (in a way that the Swashbuckler can't handle). This will sideline the swashbuckler, which is unfair, but this is a short-term thing. It's to teach the players to look for other solutions. Once they've begun to see those new tactical possibilities, then you can start to add more variety into your fights without it being quite so binary.

The other issue is you need to buff the knight. Is the party amenable to giving the Knight another 50 points? And if you do so, will he make his knight different, or is he so convinced of the supremacy of the SB's strategy that he'll just dump it all into skill?

[Nymdok]

This thread is relevant to my interests.

Let me have a look. I cant promise anything, but Im always willing to grind numbers through the machine and see if I cant find something.

Nymdok
p.s. It would be most efficient if you would send them in GCS format, but simple old PDFs will be fine.

[JMason]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I'm still not sure you're doing it right. First, the fact that he's dual-wielding should be irrelevant: You can either make a rapid strike or you can make a dual-wielding attack, not both. Second, you explicitly state that he uses ONE deceptive attack. You realize that this is the only attack that benefits from being deceptive, right? The remaining attacks, unless they are also given a separate, deceptive option, are defended against normally.

He has Extra Attack (not DWA), he's turning one of them into a rapid strike. I've never seen anything that implies this isn't allowed.

Yes, he only rolls one deceptive attack per turn, but that is usually enough. With his high skill he often makes this an called shot to the leg or other area to take the monster out even if it isn't killed outright.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Enemies can retreat too. Enemies can have a high defense too. There are plenty of ways to defeat the swashbuckler. That doesn't seem to be the problem.

The problem, to my eye, is that the Knight is 50 points less than the Swashbuckler, and largely doesn't seem dissimilar (same race, same amount of ST. Why would he have the same amount of ST?) and that your casters have evolved to be support entirely.

Why? Alright, let's so something very basic: We create an opponent with a parry of 30. "WTF?" I can hear you saying, but here me out, as this is an exaggerated hypothetical. That huge parry will surely defeat the swashbuckler. There's no way for him to get past it (The first defense will be 25, then 29, 28, 27 and 26, assuming the monster is a weapon master with a two-handed weapon). He's unbeatable...

Except you can't parry an explosive fireball. You can't parry mind control. You can't parry Flesh to Stone. You can't parry a lightning bolt, and you can't even parry an ice dagger. The fact that this has never come up has both surprised me, and suggests to me that either the PCs haven't figured out this very basic concept yet, or everything you've thrown at them is more easily defeated by a quick blast of sword attacks than by spending 3 turns casting a fireball.

The SB bought up his ST by quite a bit (3 or 4 levels) as he's earned CP. The Knight is much lower for a few reasons: He is a replacement character (my rules are that if you create a new character it starts at the prior character's starting value + half of the CP gained on the prior character), that player's job often keeps him out, so he has missed more session than the other characters.

High defense monsters tend to neutralize most of the group, not just the SB. The Knight uses an axe, so he's out. The Cleric likes to get into the action when done buffing, so he MIGHT throw a sunbolt, but is just as likely to draw his morning star. That leaves it up to the wizard who again, is a missile spell guy. So this leads to very slow combats that the players get tired of.

Still, maybe a few more "slogs" is what it will take to get them to see that maybe diversity is a good thing (since my repeated telling them hasn't worked out so well).

Originally Posted by scc

From the sounds of things part of the issue is the other party members. Casters in GURPS really shouldn't have attack spells, they aren't very good bang for buck

I've said this to my group, I've posted lists of useful spells, I've all but forbidden missile spells, but it hasn't gotten through.


Again, thanks for the advice everyone. I've got this thread open in one window and am working on my next dungeon in the other!