Survivable Guns Realism

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Not necessarily; it's also possible to just use extremely high variability in damage, a la Phoenix Command (where the range in damage from being hit by a pistol is something like 5-1,000). I briefly get into this in my article on wound size modifiers, basic idea is that you add 1d-4 to effective wound size, which means a pi attack doing 10 penetrating damage would have a chance to do 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, or 20 injury.

lwcamp has his own take on that concept, which basically comes down to - turn xd+y to 1d*x+y for damage, SM 0 experiences blowthrough at 2x whatever is rolled (SM -1 at 1.5x, SM -2 at x, SM +2 at 5x, etc). So, with GodBeastX's situation, let's assume the dog is around SM -1. The pistol would be 1d*3+1 pi+1, and each shot has an equal chance of doing 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, or 19 damage. Blowthrough being 1.5x means these would actually be 2, 3.5, 5, 6.5, 8, or 9.5 damage, for 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, or 19 injury (bullet is effectively pi+2 against target). I've experimented some with his wounding system, and will probably start playing with this bit soon as well.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I've had good success with adding an armor divisor and halving gun damage (including pistols), at least if you're using hit locations and some form of bleeding.

Half damage, double the armor divisors really does work pretty well. You *can* still die from a single shot that doesn't hit the brain or vitals - a high damage roll from a rifle shot will still take not too tough humans to -1 x HT occasionally - but it does a good job of ensuring most people shot once somewhere less vital will live if they get any medical care at all.

It's such a simple change that almost fixes so many complaints - including those about the implausible effectiveness of low tech missiles if you extend it to arrows and sling bullets - that I don't know why it isn't a more popular rule.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Half damage, double the armor divisors really does work pretty well.

Or you can just halve damage and high tech armor DR, and give bullets an extra level of armor piercing against low tech armors (or extrapolate this to a general AP bonus for higher tech weapons against lower tech armors).

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Or you can just halve damage and high tech armor DR, and give bullets an extra level of armor piercing against low tech armors (or extrapolate this to a general AP bonus for higher tech weapons against lower tech armors).

You.... Could. But why would you use a more complicated solution than is necessary?

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Half damage, double the armor divisors really does work pretty well. You *can* still die from a single shot that doesn't hit the brain or vitals - a high damage roll from a rifle shot will still take not too tough humans to -1 x HT occasionally - but it does a good job of ensuring most people shot once somewhere less vital will live if they get any medical care at all.

It's such a simple change that almost fixes so many complaints - including those about the implausible effectiveness of low tech missiles if you extend it to arrows and sling bullets - that I don't know why it isn't a more popular rule.

Halving damage works poorly for weapons which already do less than two dice, because 1d with bonuses or penalties only allows so much variability. This is a problem for both muscle-powered projectiles and handguns. The basic idea of a 5d rifle becoming a 2d+2 (2) rifle sounds good but I'm not sure if it should be extended to all projectiles.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Half damage, double the armor divisors really does work pretty well. You *can* still die from a single shot that doesn't hit the brain or vitals - a high damage roll from a rifle shot will still take not too tough humans to -1 x HT occasionally - but it does a good job of ensuring most people shot once somewhere less vital will live if they get any medical care at all.

It's such a simple change that almost fixes so many complaints - including those about the implausible effectiveness of low tech missiles if you extend it to arrows and sling bullets - that I don't know why it isn't a more popular rule.

Yeah, and even if the rifle doesn't outright kill you, you are almost certainly prone on the ground, stunned, rolling for unconsciousness every turn, and bleeding to death rapidly.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Halving damage works poorly for weapons which already do less than two dice, because 1d with bonuses or penalties only allows so much variability. This is a problem for both muscle-powered projectiles and handguns. The basic idea of a 5d rifle becoming a 2d+2 (2) rifle sounds good but I'm not sure if it should be extended to all projectiles.

Guns only. Not all projectiles. The only handguns that aren't 2d are things like .22s, which I'm fine with requiring a fair amount of hits to kill someone with.

Ah, my mistake. Missed malloyd suggesting applying it to everything. Yeah, I wouldn't use it for anything that wasn't a small high speed penetrator like a bullet.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

You.... Could. But why would you use a more complicated solution than is necessary?

Some people would like to reduce the effectiveness of modern armor against melee threats too.

Personally I'd do that separately - just give modern armors a split DR - rather than complicate bullets like that - if only to avoid the nasty issue of how are you going to decide what's a "low tech armor" against which they get a bonus.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Some people would like to reduce the effectiveness of modern armor against melee threats too.

Personally I'd do that separately - just give modern armors a split DR - rather than complicate bullets like that - if only to avoid the nasty issue of how are you going to decide what's a "low tech armor" against which they get a bonus.

Modern armor already has split DR

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Modern armor already has split DR

Right, but like the Assault Vest is 12/5* (no plates), with the 12 being good against cutting and piercing. Now, I'm not certain, but I think it's not as good at stopping two handed swords and sling bullets as it is bullets. Or as good as heavy plate, you know?

I dunno, I guess I can see it. I just think it's kind of an edge case and I don't know if I'd tweak with rules to fix something that probably comes up fairly rarely in play.