Not quite clear on how some poisons work

BraselC5048 · 03-02-2014, 10:23 PM

I'm reading the rules for poisons from High Tech, and I'm not really clear on how a few of them work.

Ricin - "failure means he also experiences coughing" "failure on both the initial roll and any future roll results in choking," - seems like that's almost an errata situation. So, on a failure, do you suffer coughing, choking (can't be both, they're incompatible), or should the choking only be on a critical failure?

Second question - how long does the nausea and vomiting last, assuming you pass the initial roll (which I assume means there are no father rolls required)?

Strychnine - So if you pass the HT roll to avoid choking, are you out of the woods? Or do you keep rolling for dozens to hundreds of times? And if pass, how long do the seizures last?

Botulin Toxins - So is one successful roll enough to shake it off, or do you keep rolling until you get the antitoxin? And the "how long does it last" (nausea and retching) question again. Also, if the victim must be on ventilation, doesn't that mean choking, not paralysis?

Curare - It's only a 10% chance for Joe Average to actually die from choking (i.e. respiratory paralysis) each cycle or 41% total (assuming 5 rolls). Is that right? And of course, how long does paralysis last, if you fail the last roll, or pass a roll after having failed one?

sir_pudding · 03-02-2014, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

Ricin - "failure means he also experiences coughing" "failure on both the initial roll and any future roll results in choking," - seems like that's almost an errata situation. So, on a failure, do you suffer coughing, choking (can't be both, they're incompatible), or should the choking only be on a critical failure?

Doesn't that mean that if you fail the initial roll it's Coughing and if fail again it turns into Choking?

DanHoward · 03-03-2014, 02:08 AM

The way I read it: the first time you make a HT roll, you immediately recover and make no further rolls. Any damage suffered up until that point remains.

E.g. with Curare you automatically suffer 2d toxic damage after one minute and have to roll HT-6 to avoid paralysis. If you succeed then you shake off the paralysis and make no further rolls. If you fail then you are paralysed. If you crit fail then you are paralysed and choking. You roll again in half an hour. If you fail then you remain paralysed and roll again in another half hour. If you succeed in any of the HT rolls then you immediately recover and make no further rolls. If you fail every HT roll then you remain paralysed (and possibly choking) for four cycles upon which time you recover.

Each cycle is half an hour so I have two questions:
Does "four cycles" mean that the victim makes a total of four HT rolls or five?
Does the victim remain paralysed for half an hour after the last failed HT roll?

vicky_molokh · 03-03-2014, 03:59 AM

I asked some stuff on poisons here, but the number of cycles remains unclear.

Anthony · 03-03-2014, 04:09 AM

Given that most poisons are (a) not binary in effectiveness, and (b) cumulative, I suspect an awful lot of poisons would be best represented as toxic damage where the listed symptoms are just alternate damage effects. Suggested modifiers:

Alternate Incapacitation: +0%. Someone who fails a consciousness check due to the effects of this attack is instead incapacitated in a different way. Pick up to 200% in Affliction effects that occur in place of the normal Unconsciousness (+200%).
Alternate Mortal Wound: +(effect value-250%)/5, minimum 0. Someone who is mortally wounded by this attack has an effect other than a normal mortal wound.

Humabout · 03-03-2014, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Given that most poisons are (a) not binary in effectiveness, and (b) cumulative, I suspect an awful lot of poisons would be best represented as toxic damage where the listed symptoms are just alternate damage effects. Suggested modifiers:

Alternate Incapacitation: +0%. Someone who fails a consciousness check due to the effects of this attack is instead incapacitated in a different way. Pick up to 200% in Affliction effects that occur in place of the normal Unconsciousness (+200%).
Alternate Mortal Wound: +(effect value-250%)/5, minimum 0. Someone who is mortally wounded by this attack has an effect other than a normal mortal wound.

I'm not entirely certain how accurate this sort of thing would be as I've not really begun my hardcore research into diseases (which appear from cursory initial research to behave almost identically to poisons from a medical standpoint). I could possibly see replacing a mortal condition with another, since dead is dead and the how doesn't matter much.

That said, I LOVE this concept in general. If I get time, I'm going to play around with these modifiers and see what I can make them do :)

BraselC5048 · 03-03-2014, 02:26 PM

Ok, reading that other thread, it seems that with Botulin Toxins, you keep rolling until you get the antitoxin, and if you fail a roll, you're not only paralyzed, but need to be on ventilation, or you die. Nasty, but the book should have actually said that. Really, that whole section could benefit from being rewritten with a bit more rules lawyering in mind, since you can't really tell what the rules actually are from reading it.

With Strychnine, it's still not clear. Do you have to make dozens of rolls to avoid choking, or do you only have to pass one? If dozens or more, it's really deadly - effectively a 100% fatality rate. If it's one, then the fatality rate is about 50%. And I'm still wondering how long seizures last if you pass the first roll, or after passing any roll for that matter?

Ricin - I get it now. If you pass a roll, do you still have to make future rolls? And how long do the effects last once you pass a roll? Curare - average 41% fatality rate is correct, i think?

Almost seems like this needs official clarification.

lwcamp · 03-08-2014, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Given that most poisons are (a) not binary in effectiveness, and (b) cumulative, I suspect an awful lot of poisons would be best represented as toxic damage where the listed symptoms are just alternate damage effects. Suggested modifiers:

Alternate Incapacitation: +0%. Someone who fails a consciousness check due to the effects of this attack is instead incapacitated in a different way. Pick up to 200% in Affliction effects that occur in place of the normal Unconsciousness (+200%).
Alternate Mortal Wound: +(effect value-250%)/5, minimum 0. Someone who is mortally wounded by this attack has an effect other than a normal mortal wound.

This is fairly close to how I modeled snake venom in Animalia
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/animalia/r...s/Elapids.html
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/animalia/r...ae/Vipers.html
except that I used a lot of No Wounding damage and Symptoms.

Luke

Anthony · 03-08-2014, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lwcamp

except that I used a lot of No Wounding damage and Symptoms.

Huh. I was under the impression that No Wounding and Symptoms were incompatible, but RAW is inconsistent. On the one hand we have:

Quote:

Symptoms are effects that occur if the cumulative damage...

and on the other hand we have the example:

Quote:

Example: ... but as a Symptom that occurs when the victim has lost half his HP...

and

Quote:

Symptoms abate only when the damage that caused them is healed.

Damage does not cause HP loss and cannot be healed -- that's wounding. I suspect this should be errata, in which case No Wounding and Symptoms are incompatible.

In any case, symptoms do work, but most poisons are going to be detrimental to your ability to survive injuries (and vice versa), and will kill directly in high enough doses, so it's not like No Wounding is required. Perhaps a Quick Healing limitation of sorts for some poisons, as many will be flushed out of the body and cease to be a problem on a much shorter timescale than injuries, but we're still usually talking multiple hours to a few days.

Dwarf99 · 03-07-2014, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

So, on a failure, do you suffer coughing, choking (can't be both, they're incompatible)

Speaking from personal experience as someone who had a full throat dissection to remove thyroid cancer, you actually can do both if your throat muscles have some reason to be weak. I did for about 3 weeks after my surgery.

Er... well, I suppose technically I was alternating between coughing, choking, retching, and vomiting.

03-02-2014, 10:23 PM	#1
BraselC5048 Join Date: Oct 2012	Not quite clear on how some poisons work I'm reading the rules for poisons from High Tech, and I'm not really clear on how a few of them work. Ricin - "failure means he also experiences coughing" "failure on both the initial roll and any future roll results in choking," - seems like that's almost an errata situation. So, on a failure, do you suffer coughing, choking (can't be both, they're incompatible), or should the choking only be on a critical failure? Second question - how long does the nausea and vomiting last, assuming you pass the initial roll (which I assume means there are no father rolls required)? Strychnine - So if you pass the HT roll to avoid choking, are you out of the woods? Or do you keep rolling for dozens to hundreds of times? And if pass, how long do the seizures last? Botulin Toxins - So is one successful roll enough to shake it off, or do you keep rolling until you get the antitoxin? And the "how long does it last" (nausea and retching) question again. Also, if the victim must be on ventilation, doesn't that mean choking, not paralysis? Curare - It's only a 10% chance for Joe Average to actually die from choking (i.e. respiratory paralysis) each cycle or 41% total (assuming 5 rolls). Is that right? And of course, how long does paralysis last, if you fail the last roll, or pass a roll after having failed one?

03-03-2014, 02:08 AM	#3
DanHoward Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia	Re: Not quite clear on how some poisons work The way I read it: the first time you make a HT roll, you immediately recover and make no further rolls. Any damage suffered up until that point remains. E.g. with Curare you automatically suffer 2d toxic damage after one minute and have to roll HT-6 to avoid paralysis. If you succeed then you shake off the paralysis and make no further rolls. If you fail then you are paralysed. If you crit fail then you are paralysed and choking. You roll again in half an hour. If you fail then you remain paralysed and roll again in another half hour. If you succeed in any of the HT rolls then you immediately recover and make no further rolls. If you fail every HT roll then you remain paralysed (and possibly choking) for four cycles upon which time you recover. Each cycle is half an hour so I have two questions: Does "four cycles" mean that the victim makes a total of four HT rolls or five? Does the victim remain paralysed for half an hour after the last failed HT roll? __________________ Compact Castles gives the gamer an instant portfolio of genuine, real-world castle floorplans to use in any historical, low-tech, or fantasy game setting. Last edited by DanHoward; 03-03-2014 at 03:11 AM.

03-03-2014, 03:59 AM	#4
vicky_molokh GURPS FAQ Keeper Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kyïv, Ukraine	Re: Not quite clear on how some poisons work I asked some stuff on poisons here, but the number of cycles remains unclear. __________________ Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper

03-03-2014, 04:09 AM	#5
Anthony Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA	Re: Not quite clear on how some poisons work Given that most poisons are (a) not binary in effectiveness, and (b) cumulative, I suspect an awful lot of poisons would be best represented as toxic damage where the listed symptoms are just alternate damage effects. Suggested modifiers: Alternate Incapacitation: +0%. Someone who fails a consciousness check due to the effects of this attack is instead incapacitated in a different way. Pick up to 200% in Affliction effects that occur in place of the normal Unconsciousness (+200%). Alternate Mortal Wound: +(effect value-250%)/5, minimum 0. Someone who is mortally wounded by this attack has an effect other than a normal mortal wound. __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.

03-03-2014, 02:26 PM	#7
BraselC5048 Join Date: Oct 2012	Re: Not quite clear on how some poisons work Ok, reading that other thread, it seems that with Botulin Toxins, you keep rolling until you get the antitoxin, and if you fail a roll, you're not only paralyzed, but need to be on ventilation, or you die. Nasty, but the book should have actually said that. Really, that whole section could benefit from being rewritten with a bit more rules lawyering in mind, since you can't really tell what the rules actually are from reading it. With Strychnine, it's still not clear. Do you have to make dozens of rolls to avoid choking, or do you only have to pass one? If dozens or more, it's really deadly - effectively a 100% fatality rate. If it's one, then the fatality rate is about 50%. And I'm still wondering how long seizures last if you pass the first roll, or after passing any roll for that matter? Ricin - I get it now. If you pass a roll, do you still have to make future rolls? And how long do the effects last once you pass a roll? Curare - average 41% fatality rate is correct, i think? Almost seems like this needs official clarification.