GURPS 4e Entry Point

[trappedslider]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you paid cash money for it, and then found out it contained nothing you didn't already own or could get for free, would you have felt ripped off? Once again I'm not against such a product, I'm against charging money for free merchandise.

once again i'm going to say that not everyone feels the same about the dice thing infact my parents get mad when i get d6s from the borad games and not everyone knows about it being offer online

[Hex]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you paid cash money for it, and then found out it contained nothing you didn't already own or could get for free, would you have felt ripped off? Once again I'm not against such a product, I'm against charging money for free merchandise.

Pudding meet wall...

[Hex]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

Again, a crap example. For stamps, and many hobbies, you must pick and choose. For GURPS, the core of everything is in 500 pages. OH WOW . . . 500 PAGES . . . I'M SWOONING.

OK...I finally have to take issue to this. It's been said again and again that in order to learn GURPS 4e...you have to read a 500 page tome. Well to be honest, if your just a player that 500 pages is a radically large number. The player only needs to read some of what is in the Characters book. Which might I add is dominated by lists of Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills. In order to understand the fundamentals your really only looking at around 58 pages of reading. Discounting reading all the entries for Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills, as well as taking out the Spells, Psi and Templates entries. But, even if you include the last two your only realistically adding another 14 pages to the "reading".

Now I personally don't think it is important for the player to read every entry for Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills. The titles to each are mostly self-explanatory and anything that the player may have a question to can be quickly resolved by reading the entry or getting advice from the GM.

Now, being the GM obviously has more of an invested knowledge/time issue. Most chapters in the campaigns book are important, and the GM should have a firm fundamental knowledge of these rules. But, some can be learned on a need to know basis. There is nothing like hands on to teach a rule. And, if the game needs to be delayed to learn it...then any subsequent similar situations will not take up as much time, as well you get the off shoot benefit of having your players also learn the rule.

So, taking the important chapters in the Campaigns book (which I am including the tactical combat chapter, which could be mostly ignored for those who do not use miniatures...but do require some of the rules embedded within. Like me!) the page count added comes in around 184 extra pages. So, added to the Characters book, even a GM only really needs to read 256 pages to be a competent GM for GURPS. A far cry from the 500+ pages that are being bandied about.

I just felt this needed to be said, in case someone who is reading this thread, who is interested in looking at GURPS 4e, will not be getting the wrong impression.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Hex

OK...I finally have to take issue to this. It's been said again and again that in order to learn GURPS 4e...you have to read a 500 page tome. Well to be honest, if your just a player that 500 pages is a radically large number. The player only needs to read some of what is in the Characters book. Which might I add is dominated by lists of Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills. In order to understand the fundamentals your really only looking at around 58 pages of reading. Discounting reading all the entries for Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills, as well as taking out the Spells, Psi and Templates entries. But, even if you include the last two your only realistically adding another 14 pages to the "reading".

Now I personally don't think it is important for the player to read every entry for Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills. The titles to each are mostly self-explanatory and anything that the player may have a question to can be quickly resolved by reading the entry or getting advice from the GM.

Now, being the GM obviously has more of an invested knowledge/time issue. Most chapters in the campaigns book are important, and the GM should have a firm fundamental knowledge of these rules. But, some can be learned on a need to know basis. There is nothing like hands on to teach a rule. And, if the game needs to be delayed to learn it...then any subsequent similar situations will not take up as much time, as well you get the off shoot benefit of having your players also learn the rule.

So, taking the important chapters in the Campaigns book (which I am including the tactical combat chapter, which could be mostly ignored for those who do not use miniatures...but do require some of the rules embedded within. Like me!) the page count added comes in around 184 extra pages. So, added to the Characters book, even a GM only really needs to read 256 pages to be a competent GM for GURPS. A far cry from the 500+ pages that are being bandied about.

I just felt this needed to be said, in case someone who is reading this thread, who is interested in looking at GURPS 4e, will not be getting the wrong impression.

I agree completely. My point all along is that the essence of GURPS is pretty simple. However, someone new to the game who doesn't have an established group of experienced players to learn from might be a little intimidated by the two big books, not to mention the cover price. You get what you're paying for, but it's still a big initial investment. Prime Directive or Discworld make cheaper, easier entry points. The Vorkosigan RPG I suspect will help attract a lot of new people to GURPS.


- DW

[Doktor Teufel]

I'm tired of this banter. Here are six statements for your consideration.

I was away from gaming for years while in the military, yet I managed to dive right back in.

I had no prior experience with GURPS, but I researched it and read reviews for it.

I live below the poverty line, yet I managed to afford the Basic Set.

Although the books total 500+ pages, I read them easily and with enthusiasm.

My schedule is as busy as anyone else's, and perhaps a good deal busier.

Despite these amazing accomplishments, I'm just another average American.

So what is the difference between me and these guys who are ostensibly "intimidated" by GURPS?

[Casey]

Originally Posted by Hex

So, added to the Characters book, even a GM only really needs to read 256 pages to be a competent GM for GURPS. A far cry from the 500+ pages that are being bandied about.

I just felt this needed to be said, in case someone who is reading this thread, who is interested in looking at GURPS 4e, will not be getting the wrong impression.

That'd be people like me, who haven't upgraded to 4e partially due to 576 pages of basic rules and a $74.90 price tag. That's a lot to swallow at once for what is a unpopular game in my area that I'd have to pitch and run. Even before tacking on another 1-3+ $40 books per genre/setting I'm looking instead at other games that require less in money and/or time to get going and are just as fun to me while also being able to count on getting players. Roleplaying is just one hobby of mine, and not the only tabletop gaming one. For that matter it's comparable to the time and money I could use on a subject of that size that would directly help earn me more money.

On if there is a need for introductory or stepping stone products in general and whether or not such products are dumbed down and those who use them instead of the full monty are lazy, even HERO 5th has the 128 page Sidekick book for $10 and it has everything needed. Advanced Squad Leader has two boxed, step-by-step instruction kits (with possibly more on the way) and Squad Leader used a programmed instruction method to teach the game. Starfleet Battles has Federation Commander and Battle Force. Not everyone learns a game the same way, not everyone swallows the entire set at once, not every group plays the same way. Not everyone wants the full experience of a game.

I used to think something like Sidekick, which has replaced [re]FRED esp. in play for many HERO groups, grogs or newbies, would be helpful for GURPS 4e, but it might cannibalize sales from GURPS Basic Set: Characters. GURPS started off as a rethink of Melee in Man-to-Man, some sort of board game that offers more flexibility and replay-ability than say D&D Miniatures (multi-genre), based on GURPS could be fun though likely costly to design and make. Or GUMPS for Munchkin. :P

[Casey]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

So what is the difference between me and these guys who are ostensibly "intimidated" by GURPS?

You are really keen on running a GURPS game.

To someone not yet sold on GURPS a minimum of 576 pages of just rules and $74.90 needed just to get started in a game, esp. if it's only for 2-5 hours 1-4 times a month is likely to be a significant factor in not choosing GURPS4e. Along with GURPS’ reputation as a complex game* and one only able to handle low-powered genres while being touted as a universal system (i.e. either incomplete or unsuitable). Other games they are already familiar with and/or are likely to be easier to just run and play and to provide as much or more fun with less overall “chugwork” required. This includes not only the effort required to read and understand the rules but the prep-work required for a campaign.

I’ve seen more of the geek equivalent of length comparisons than I want to in one thread. ^_^


* HERO Sidekick makes even HERO seem less complex now, and GURPS Lite for 4e just doesn't seem as complete or playable as 3e's did + there's no free (pdf or otherwise) sample GURPS 4e adventure that I'm aware to help play "right out of the box" and as a example to help new GMs get up to speed

[Doktor Teufel]

Originally Posted by Casey

You are really keen on running a GURPS game.

Incorrect! I am really keen on running a game world (or multiple game worlds) that I designed myself, set in a genre of my choosing. This is utterly impossible with nearly any other system. I own both GURPS 4th and HERO System Fifth Edition, Revised . . . GURPS 4th is truly generic, much more flexible, and easier to use (IMO).

Originally Posted by Casey

To someone not yet sold on GURPS a minimum of 576 pages of just rules and $74.90 needed just to get started in a game, esp. if it's only for 2-5 hours 1-4 times a month is likely to be a significant factor in not choosing GURPS4e.

I got mine for around $50.00, and that was months ago. Of course, that would require you to order from the Internet.

Originally Posted by Casey

Along with GURPS’ reputation as a complex game* and one only able to handle low-powered genres while being touted as a universal system (i.e. either incomplete or unsuitable).

Not that it affects me, but who says that GURPS can't handle high-powered genres?

Originally Posted by Casey

* HERO Sidekick makes even HERO seem less complex now, and GURPS Lite for 4e just doesn't seem as complete or playable as 3e's did.

Ever run a game in the HERO System? It has its own problems, and they are as onerous as GURPS' problems, if not more so. On that, you have my solemn vow. In the supers genre with HERO System, combat played by the book (or even with speeding-up measures in place) can take literally an entire game session (or longer).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by trappedslider

once again i'm going to say that not everyone feels the same about the dice thing infact my parents get mad when i get d6s from the borad games and not everyone knows about it being offer online

Tell you what slider, send me $5.00 U.S. + $5.00 shipping and handling and I will Fedex you a copy of GURPS Lite, a copy of Caravan to Ein Arris and 3D6, okay?

[RevBob]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

Although the books total 500+ pages, I read them easily and with enthusiasm.

My schedule is as busy as anyone else's, and perhaps a good deal busier.

Despite these amazing accomplishments, I'm just another average American.

So what is the difference between me and these guys who are ostensibly "intimidated" by GURPS?

You know, I read a lot. I read enough that I decided about a year ago to find out how much "a lot" is, in terms of raw books, and that experiment will finish up in a few days. The number is well over 100 books in that year, and may top 200. I don't know yet; part of my experiment is that I'm not counting until it's done. Some of those books are short, some are long, and I rarely have a problem diving right in and tackling a thousand-page novel if it looks interesting.

However, if you can't see how reading a thousand-page novel is different from reading a 200-page textbook, something is very wrong.

Let's not mince words; the Basic Set is a textbook. It has no plot, no narrative hook, nothing to draw the reader in. It's a reference book, and most people find the idea of reading a reference book to be slightly less exciting than watching grass grow. Now, this is not to say that other core rulebooks are any less textbooky; I'm just trying to illustrate a key qualitative difference. Given the equal choice between reading a textbook or reading a novel, the novel's gonna win. Hands-down, no question about it. Novels are more fun per page. Throw in movies or videogames, and...well, do I really need to go there?

I don't know if any of you ever saw the Xxxenophile CCG, but its manual was brilliant. You had a short comic that illustrated the key concepts of the game - enough to get you hooked - followed by the actual manual that explained the rules. You have an idea what's going on almost instantly, and if something's confusing, you at least know what questions to ask. It's kind of like the way a basic computer science class works: hook the guys by giving 'em enough information to make a barely functional program that Really Works (to get over the "I Can't Do This" hump), then build on that foundation piece by piece until you have people creating complex software.

Now, I'm an MIB. I like SJG products. It's been a while since I've played GURPS, so I snagged a copy of G4e Lite and tried to read through it. For the most part, I failed. G4e Lite comes across as an assemblage of charts, not as a primer for new players...and I think that is the key to this discussion. GURPS doesn't need a book with less charts or better charts. GURPS needs a primer with a decent hook.

Telling someone that they'll have lots of fun playing this game once they endure the mind-numbing boredom of reading a textbook is not the best sales pitch. If it was, SJG wouldn't need MIBs; the games would fly off the shelves all by themselves. As it is, the MIB serves the purpose of a primer: take Joe Newbie off the street, sell him on the idea of the game, and give him a quick enough tutorial to actually play it and get a feel for the mechanics. If he likes it, he might join a game and wind up buying the books. If not, well, at least he doesn't hate us for making him spend $40 to find out it's not his cup of tea.

Unfortunately, MIBs can't be everywhere all the time...and that's where this proposed entry point comes in.