[Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It's a minor point, but I think he can do a little better. After all, he's already got one leg involved in the grapple. So he uses 1.1*ST rather that 1*ST when he grapples the halberd, which seems like it should give him Trained ST 28.

So it does. That's 14 CPs, then.

The natural response to that from Master Braelgar is to spend some of his CPs from the grapple on Mickey's leg to Sweep him. They count double for that purpose.

Since Braelgar is suffering -7 to ST and DX, I guess he'll want to spend them all, to ensure victory. Because that will give him +16, though, he can accept a -3 for Rapid Strike, planning to follow up his Sweep with some brutal battering of his now prone foe.

Sweep 15 (25-7-3) vs. Trained ST 28 (30-4 and a +2 for grappling encumbrance modifier), with a +16 bonus to Braelgar for the spent CP. Well, I rolled a 6-6-6 for Braeelgar, so I guess he loses. Rolls a 12 for effect, which means that he needs a Ready before he can use his weapon again. Ok, so Mickey wins that fight.

Assuming for the sake of actually testing the rules that a lucky critical failure didn't end the fight and rerolling, Braelgar wins the Quick Contest, with the margin of victory being 7. Mickey is knocked down and loses his grapple on the halberd, as he cannot mantain it while lying prone. Mickey succeeds at Wrestling-based Breakfall, even at -7, and lands on his back, not his belly.

Now no one is grappling anyone. Master Braelgar has another attack in store, however, at -3 for Rapid Strike. That means effective skill 25, with a -5 for Face, reduced by 2 points for Combat at Different Levels. Ends up 22, use Deceptive Attack to reduce that down to 14 to give a -4 (reduced to -3) to Mickey's Active Defences. His Brawling Parry is thus 14-3 or 11, with success by 3 or less meaning that he takes damage to the parrying limb.

Braelgar hits with a swing, using the hammer that's instead of a spike on a tourney halberd. Mickey spends a FP for a +2 to his Brawling Parry, but only manages to get his left arm in the way. ST 16 Weapon Master with a hammer head on a 10-lbs halberd is 2d+10 cr or 16 damage, of which 10 get through DR, reduced to 3 HP for Mickey's Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction.

Our Hero is in trouble, but even with a -1 Shock Penalty (HP over 20 divides the Shock), he makes an Acrobatics-based Instant Stand (which he has at 16) and finishes up with a Fast-Draw of his 14" long unsharpened rondel, which is a baton that uses Shortsword skill, into a Defensive Grip. Mickey's Shortsword skill is 23, one lower than his Two-Handed Sword skill, but it's better than being unarmed.

Of course, he's still facing an unwounded absolute master with a halberd while wielding a 14" long baton. His 3 HP wound to the left arm is not enough to trouble him much, though, as he has 25 HP and the wounding threshold for the arm is thus 9 HP.

But now Master Braelgar will avoid anything even smelling like a grapple while striving to keep Reach at 2, so Mickey can't harm him. And since Mickey won't have Luck to burn, it's likely that he'll succeed in this and give Mickey sound whacks to any and all exposed limbs until Mickey cries uncle.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Icelander

So it does. That's 14 CPs, then.

The natural response to that from Master Braelgar is to spend some of his CPs from the grapple on Mickey's leg to Sweep him. They count double for that purpose.

Since Braelgar is suffering -7 to ST and DX, I guess he'll want to spend them all, to ensure victory. Because that will give him +16, though, he can accept a -3 for Rapid Strike, planning to follow up his Sweep with some brutal battering of his now prone foe.

Sweep 15 (25-7-3) vs. Trained ST 28 (30-4 and a +2 for grappling encumbrance modifier), with a +16 bonus to Braelgar for the spent CP. Well, I rolled a 6-6-6 for Braeelgar, so I guess he loses. Rolls a 12 for effect, which means that he needs a Ready before he can use his weapon again. Ok, so Mickey wins that fight.

Assuming for the sake of actually testing the rules that a lucky critical failure didn't end the fight and rerolling, Braelgar wins the Quick Contest, with the margin of victory being 7. Mickey is knocked down and loses his grapple on the halberd, as he cannot mantain it while lying prone. Mickey succeeds at Wrestling-based Breakfall, even at -7, and lands on his back, not his belly.

.

Mickey should spend his 14 CP to help his QC and/or hurt his opponents. CP can be spent on either side of a QC. That should shift this from an autoloss for Sir Michael to nearly autowin for him.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by chandley

Mickey should spend his 14 CP to help his QC and/or hurt his opponents. CP can be spent on either side of a QC. That should shift this from an autoloss for Sir Michael to nearly autowin for him.

Can you spend CP when it's not your turn and you are making a Quick Contest defensively?

If so, that changes everything!

See, that's why I have to go through the book for practice fights, with forumites commenting on what I do wrong.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Doug, I want a ruling on this! I'm personally inclined to allow it, but the rules-as-written don't seem to. Did playtesting reveal any pitfalls associated with it?

If you like it, allow it. You overestimate the amount and variety of fight-based playtesting that occurred. And even had it, the odds of superhero level enweaponed fighters using the Hook maneuver getting the specific test is as slim as you'd imagine.

You seem to be interpreting the rules as presented in fairly normal ways, so the problem isn't really the rules. The more-skilled fighter is wielding a weapon successfully to neutralize the advantages of a stronger but less skilled fighter . . . which sounds like "what weapons are built to do" to me.

You seem to want the grappled fighter to have more options. OK, I can work with you on that, but that doesn't make it a rules problem.

So:

1) You can only use a hands-free parry with an unarmed skill if you could legitimately reach someone with an attack of your own with a single step. So if you are a normal human, your grappling hands-free parry can only be done from Reach C or 1.

2) Alternately, Hands-Free parries can only be done against an attacker within your own hex.

3) If Hooking is too awesome, you can rule that despite being a long weapon, you really aren't magnifying your ST with it - it's not a lever, it's an extension. Deny the +2 per die for this purpose.

4) Rule that hooking is awesome at keeping a foe from backing up, but you get a bonus if you close the distance. If you attack to break free and step to the guy hooking you, your foe suffers -3 to parry (sort of an anti-retreat).

5) Binding only gives one-handed CP, right? So treat a hook as equivalent as a weapon bind. One-handed trained ST, but +2 per die.

6) Use Bucking Bronco (p. 26) to throw off CP automatically based on the difference in ST. Your trained ST difference is 6-8, yes? So you can automatically remove a few points per second that way, and also leverage a Brute Parry (p. 26, same box) to really leverage your ST. If your Trained ST is really 30, your Brute Parry without any CP is 18 (!). Even with -4 to ST and using Trained ST 26 or so, you're looking at a ST-based parry of 14.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Can you spend CP when it's not your turn and you are making a Quick Contest defensively?

If so, that changes everything!

See, that's why I have to go through the book for practice fights, with forumites commenting on what I do wrong.

You may always spend CP, if you have them, in any Contest in which you are a participant.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

You may always spend CP, if you have them, in any Contest in which you are a participant.

Oh, indeed.

Then Mickey shan't fall at all. :)

No doubt he'll do something exceedingly unpleasant to Master Braelgar instead.

Let's say he spends 8 of his 14 CPs on winning the Sweep QC and has a grapple on the halberd worth 6 CP.

While I don't find anything in the rules to say that while you have a weapon grappled, you are allowed to use Wrestling to Parry any attack with that weapon, not just grappling moves, I'd consider it silly if it wasn't so. That's pretty much the only viable defence in the real world to being shot or stabbed with a weapon that you are grabbing, so it has to be allowed for realistic moves taught in self-defence against weapons to be possible at all, assuming enough skill and the right Attributes and Advantages, not to mention lack of Disadvantages.

So, allowing that, Mickey will use his Wrestling Parry 17 to defend against the skill 22 halberd attack. Braelgar will use his Armed Grapple-based Polearm skill to Break Free, because it makes sense to me that you can do that when your weapon is being grappled. I could be convinced that you should use an unarmed grappling skill instead, if there is a good reason for it, but you should definitely get the leverage bonus for using a weapon in the grapple.

He DAs his skill down to 12, which puts Mickey's Parry at a cool 13. We get a hit and a parry.

Now, Doug, what do you recommend Sir Michael do, to show off his awesomeness and introduce me to more fiddly rules from Technical Grappling?

[DouglasCole]

One quick thing about the relative ST levels of the combatants during the grapple (but before Sir Michael can bring his own weapon into play).


Braegar is Skill-28, and Trained ST 23 with his halberd, but with +2 per die bonus CP due to weapon leverage, the fair comparison is to an effective Trained ST of about 36 or 37 when all is said and done.

So the multiplication factor of that weapon is HUGE, which is why you get the result of his being able to go up against a guy with Trained ST (wrestling) of 26 or so and still make Sir M look silly.

If Sir M can bring his weapon into play, that x1.6 ST factor boosts his own TST 30 to a whopping 48 equivalent, and now we're talking.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

If you like it, allow it.

I'm certain that when your weapon is grappled, you ought to be able to use Break Free with that weapon to get out of it. I could be persuaded to use Armed Grapple or even an unarmed combat skill as the basis for the roll to hit and Trained ST, but the damage roll should definitely get a bonus for using a weapon, as long as yours is still Ready in your hand.

I also think that whenever it seems feasible to introduce a weapon between you the foe grappling you and you would be able to Armed Grapple him with the weapon, you ought to be able to use it to aid in a Break Free attempt. I don't mind if the roll to hit and the Trained ST are figured from Armed Grapple or even an unarmed grappling skill, but you ought to get the leverage bonus to damage.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

You overestimate the amount and variety of fight-based playtesting that occurred. And even had it, the odds of superhero level enweaponed fighters using the Hook maneuver getting the specific test is as slim as you'd imagine.

This is why I need to take part in all playtests. :)

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

You seem to be interpreting the rules as presented in fairly normal ways, so the problem isn't really the rules. The more-skilled fighter is wielding a weapon successfully to neutralize the advantages of a stronger but less skilled fighter . . . which sounds like "what weapons are built to do" to me.

Perhaps. I'm starting to see that in a fight between people with those skill levels, Master Braelgar really needs to mix his Hook with a finishing move that puts Mickey down, so he's not battered while he can't defend himself with the polearm.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

You seem to want the grappled fighter to have more options. OK, I can work with you on that, but that doesn't make it a rules problem.

I want counter-grappling to be a viable option for Sir Michael, who is, after all, the superior grappler, not clearly and completely inferior to ignoring grappling and striking until the other party is down.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

1) You can only use a hands-free parry with an unarmed skill if you could legitimately reach someone with an attack of your own with a single step. So if you are a normal human, your grappling hands-free parry can only be done from Reach C or 1.

2) Alternately, Hands-Free parries can only be done against an attacker within your own hex.

I think that either one of those should apply, yes. Which one, I leave up to you.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

3) If Hooking is too awesome, you can rule that despite being a long weapon, you really aren't magnifying your ST with it - it's not a lever, it's an extension. Deny the +2 per die for this purpose.

I'm torn. It seems fair, in that Hook is certainly not as effective as using your weapon to grapple in both hands, as well as your body and torso at Reach C. On the other hand, would it make Hook unusable for pulling shields off-center in combat between normal ST fighters?

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

4) Rule that hooking is awesome at keeping a foe from backing up, but you get a bonus if you close the distance. If you attack to break free and step to the guy hooking you, your foe suffers -3 to parry (sort of an anti-retreat).

Like it, love it, using it.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

5) Binding only gives one-handed CP, right? So treat a hook as equivalent as a weapon bind. One-handed trained ST, but +2 per die.

Bind Weapon gets one-handed Trained ST, yes, but I assumed upon reading it that this was due to the fact that all the weapons that are listed as capable of Bind Weapon are one-handed weapons.

If it's not just that, but the intent of the rules is that using a two-handed weapon for Bind Weapon provides no benefit over using a one-handed weapon, then Hook and Bind Weapon should probably be treated the same. On one hand, I can see that a grapple using Hook at a distance would be weaker than grappling someone with your body and your weapon. On the other, it ought to matter whether you are using a one-handed fencing weapon or a two-handed bill, because you certainly can exert more force with the bill.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

6) Use Bucking Bronco (p. 26) to throw off CP automatically based on the difference in ST. Your trained ST difference is 6-8, yes? So you can automatically remove a few points per second that way, and also leverage a Brute Parry (p. 26, same box) to really leverage your ST. If your Trained ST is really 30, your Brute Parry without any CP is 18 (!). Even with -4 to ST and using Trained ST 26 or so, you're looking at a ST-based parry of 14.

That's an AoA, which means that even if you got rid of the grapple, you'd have lost the fight as soon as the opponent's turn rolls around again. Superheroic warriors do not AoA each other unless they are positive that they can finish the other party in that turn. Doing otherwise is tantamount to turning around, bending over, dropping trou' and exposing frilly underwear with glitzy letters saying '____ me, please!'

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

One quick thing about the relative ST levels of the combatants during the grapple (but before Sir Michael can bring his own weapon into play).

Braegar is Skill-28, and Trained ST 23 with his halberd, but with +2 per die bonus CP due to weapon leverage, the fair comparison is to an effective Trained ST of about 36 or 37 when all is said and done.

So the multiplication factor of that weapon is HUGE, which is why you get the result of his being able to go up against a guy with Trained ST (wrestling) of 26 or so and still make Sir M look silly.

If Sir M can bring his weapon into play, that x1.6 ST factor boosts his own TST 30 to a whopping 48 equivalent, and now we're talking.

Just so check my math, I've got Master Braelgar with ST 16, DX 12, IQ 12, HT 14; Wrestling DX+12 and DX+16 skill with a Polearm. Wrestling, which uses the Fast progression, comes to +5 at DX+12 and therefore T-ST 21 for Braelgar. Since he is a Weapon Master and therefore uses the Average progression for all weapons (and Fast for sticks), his weapon skill yields a +6 to his Trained ST. Coupled with ST 16, that comes to T-ST 22. Why did you get T-ST 23?

Sir Michael has ST 20, DX 14, IQ 12, HT 15; Wrestling DX+11 and Two-Handed Sword DX+10. Since his ST is 20, he doubles the Training Bonus from the table. He gets +5, doubled to +10, for Wrestling, which uses the Fast progression. For his two-handed sword, he gets +4, doubled to +8, because it uses the Average progression (he's a Weapon Master too).

Braelgar is actually a more skilled wrestler than Mickey, but that's because he has more fighting experience in general (in my campaign represented by 6 levels of Experienced Talent, which gives a bonus to all combat skills), not because he spent more points on Wrestling (where Mickey's 28 points actually have his 24 points beat). Mickey's higher DX means that he has a higher skill level with Wrestling and his much higher ST means that his Trained ST unarmed is 8 levels higher and with a weapon it is 6 levels higher.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I think that either one of those should apply, yes. Which one, I leave up to you.

I think it's definitely correct for the guy holding the polearm to be able to do some kind of 'technical parry' to resist grapples to it, and I don't think a U parry stat should preempt that.

Arguably the technical parry should use weapon skill, but that'll just make this situation uglier!

I mean, isn't the alternative that grappling a weapon that's attached to you is totally free to do? Though on the flip side it would also make it impossible to parry against somebody's break free attempt with the weapon.

Though you could still dodge. What does dodging a break free even look like?