[Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Scaling. If you grab a ST 50 giant - or even a ST 50 super-strong hero or killer robot - with enough oomph to impart 6 CP (-3 to ST and DX on a ST 10 person), it should impair them less. The X CP per -1 to DX, where X is ST/5, does work universally. The only reason we inverted it for ST<10 is because there it's every CP imparts at least -1 to DX, and we wanted it to be clear that for weaker guys, each CP could be quite debilitating.

In retrospect, I might should have included a table for ST 1-9, and changed the scaling so that instead of 3 CP per -1 to DX from ST 13 to ST 17 (the consequences of "round normally") it should scale by easier numbers for fast, at-the-table memorization.

Ah, I get it. Divide ST by 5 and use that number as the ratio! I was having some trouble interpreting this rule.

So Mickey, with raw ST 20, has a -1 DX for every 4 CPs inflicted on him, right?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Ah, I get it. Divide ST by 5 and use that number as the ratio! I was having some trouble interpreting this rule.

So Mickey, with raw ST 20, has a -1 DX for every 4 CPs inflicted on him, right?

Exactly. And do use RAW ST, not Trained ST, as the basis, as you've done here. So all ST 25 ogres are 5 CP per -1 to DX, even if they have lots of training.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I allowed Sir Michael's player to adjust a few techniques, Perks and skill points in light of the new rules in TG. Principally, he dropped Sumo Wrestling, which he'd been raising in order to qualify for a +2/die to Slams, as that skill no longer allows that bonus anyway.

Not the full bonus, but since the Training Bonus does apply, you get something. Not questioning the dropped skill, though.

He used the points from it and another 3 points he had to take the Shoves and Tackles Perk for Brawling and raise Bind Weapon to full skill. He also raised Sweep for Wrestling, since that is now allowed, but didn't have the points to raise it to full skill. He'll do that as soon as he has points to spend on grappling.

Does he already have it for his primary weapon?

This means that when Sir Michael slams, he can elect the better of +1/die for his ordinary Brawling bonus or a flat +8 for the Average progression Trained bonus. For slams made on foot, moving a short distance, he'll elect the latter, but slams made as part of Flying Leaps or while using his Dragonhide Boots of Flight to fly at Move 40 will probably benefit more from the standard Brawling bonus.

Seems good.

It'll be interesting to see how a wrestling match against one would play out.

Please go ahead and post a play report if it happens.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Exactly. And do use RAW ST, not Trained ST, as the basis, as you've done here. So all ST 25 ogres are 5 CP per -1 to DX, even if they have lots of training.

You've got some strong ogres. My ogres are usually ST 18 weaklings, standing 9' tall but weighing a mere 350 lbs., unless they've been serving in the evil legions of a particularly conscientous warlord, where they've been fed properly and may have added some 100 lbs. of muscle and several points of ST.

In my campaign, too, ogres are less likely to have Wrestling than they are to have Brawling and the Clinch Perk. They prefer smashing to grappling and are often far less trained in close combat than, for example, orcs or hobgoblins.

Orcish champions are often able to defeat ogres using grappling, despite weighing only two-thirds what they do. But then, the average orc has both Brawling and Wrestling at DX+2 and a healthy, successful adult warrior will usually have them at DX+4 or higher.

Orc-ogre half-breeds, however, can be fearsome grapplers, especially if, as often happens, they've been bred and trained as gladiators. Generally stronger than pure-bred ogres, even if they are on average not as tall, and smarter and more disciplined too.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Does he already have it for his primary weapon?

Yep. Sweep (Two-Handed Sword) has probably been his most frequent non-striking attack for the past three or four years of real time.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Please go ahead and post a play report if it happens.

I will. I might even arrange to have Sir Michael grapple against something big, scary and trained in grappling just to give the rules a work-out.

Unfortunately, he at a fairly civilised tourney now, where giants, ogres and suchlike are not tolerated.

There is one Mystery Knight standing 8'6" tall and weighing at least 400 lbs., though. He calls himself the Grey Knight and comes from the neighbouring city of Calaunt, and as it happens, Sir Michael did force his way into his dwelling and kill his squire and one fellow knight in the ensuing scuffle, over a minor matter of robbery and murder by the Calauntan knight.

Still and all, I don't expect Sir Michael to fight the Grey Knight, other than possibly in the lists. At least not while the tourney lasts. After it might be a different matter.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

You've got some strong ogres.

I was just making up numbers. Maybe they're Dire Ogres.

[Icelander]

Edit: I had wrong numbers for the stone giants, which were made too big.

An ordinary Stone Giant is:

Stone giants:

Shy giants that can nevertheless be dangerous when aroused to anger. Live on rocky ground. Usually neutral.

Attributes
ST 25 [120]; DX 10 [0]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 12 [20].

Secondary attributes
HP 50 [40]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 12 [0].
Basic Speed 5.5 [0], Basic Move 7 [10].

12‘; 1500 lbs. (SM +2)

Social Background and Languages
TL: 3 [-5]
CF: Stone Giant [0].
Languages: Tribal Patois (Native/Illiterate) [-3]; Stone Giant (Native/Native) [4]; Giantspeech (Native/Native) [2].

Advantages
Arm ST +45 (One Attack Only: Throwing -60%) [90]
Chameleon 1 (Rock and Earth only -20%) [4]
Damage Reduction 4 (Tough Skin -40%) [12]
Damage Reduction 6 [30]
Fearlessness 4 [8]
Lifting ST +10 [24]
Reduced Consumption 2 [4]
Style Familiarity (Belt/Jacket Wrestling) [1].

Disadvantages
Shyness (Mild) [-5]
Social Stigma (Monster) [-15]

Skills
Animal Handling: Goats (IQ+2) -12 [8], Animal Handling: Bears (IQ+2) -12 [8], Area Knowledge: Hunting Area (IQ+2) -12 [4], Axe/Mace (DX+1) -11 [4], Brawling (DX+2) -12 [4], Camouflage (IQ+2) -12 [4], Climbing (DX+2) -12 [8], Hiking (HT+1) -13 [4], Parry Missile Weapons (Optional Specialisation: Boulders) (DX+3) -13 [12], Scrounging (Per+0) -10 [1], Stealth (DX-1) -9 [1], Sumo Wrestling (DX+0) -10 [2]; Sumo Wrestling Sport (DX+0) -10 [2]; Survival: Mountains (Per+2) -12 [8], Throwing (DX+4) -14 [16], Tracking (Per+0) -10 [2], Two-Handed Axe/Mace (DX+1) -11 [4].

Attributes [140]
Secondary Attributes [42]
Social Background [-2]
Advantages [183]
Disadvantages [-20]
Skills [92]
Total [435]

I'd expect a well-regarded warrior to have ST slightly higher, perhaps a point of DX and HT extra and certainly 1-4 levels higher in combat skills. DX+6 in Sumo Wrestling seems fair for the best wrestler in the clan and ST 30 (with Lifting ST at maybe 45) makes it a significant challenge.

That would be Trained ST 59 for the giant, which is not too shabby at all. And against a SM 0 foe, he'd be at +2 DX and +30% T-ST, which translates to a full Trained ST 72 against poor Mickey. CPs of 8d for a two-handed grapple and even a one-handed one would be Trained ST 47 for a 5d CP grapple.

The giant would have a +8 to anything to do with throwing around the tiny little mannikin.

Of course, Mickey is at -4 (-9 for a BL multiplier of x12, reduced by 5 for training bonus) to any move which requires him to pit his strength against the mass of the stone giant and in any position where the giant has brought his weight to bear, Mickey will suffer a -1 encumbrance penalty as well.

Incredibly, it seems that with his Girdle of Might +6, he is strong enough to move the giant around, if at a penalty. He might not perform any Pickups, but he can Sweep well enough. Granted, he'll have to get a grapple first and spend CPs to have a good chance to win the Quick Contest, but, well, one would expect some trouble while wrestling a GIANT!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I was just making up numbers. Maybe they're Dire Ogres.

Sure, sure. The weak ogres in my campaign are a consequence of it being set in a D&D setting, where modern ogres are derisively known as beast-men and are fairly pitiful remnants of a once-mightier race. If they weren't lanky and ill-fed, they'd weigh 50 lbs. more on average and have ST 20-22 instead. And a well-fed warrior ogre, standing straight and tall instead of being a broken-down wreck of a monster, while fairly rare in the setting, could easily reach ST 25 and even more than that.

Ogre magi certainly have ST 23+, in setting. They stand 10' and weigh 500-700 lbs. And they are sorcerously powerful and terrifying warriors, to boot.

[Icelander]

Am I misunderstanding something fundamental about Brute Parries?

The way I read the rule, you can substitute ST/2+3 for skill/2+3 for your parry against any grappling attack. I don't know if you can use techniques like Grabbing Parry or Escaping Parry based off your Brute Parry and whether Enhanced Parry or the +1 for Combat Reflexes should add to Brute Parry, but even if neither holds true, this still leads to a situation where two stone giants are unable to grapple each other at all.

Their ST 45, even without a Training Bonus, mean a Brute Parry of 25. With skill 10, there is pretty much no reasonable way for them to grapple each other effectively. They can't Deceptive Attack and Feints are not going to succeed with a large enough margin.

Even if they were good wrestlers, with Sumo Wrestling at DX+6 and thus skill 16, things wouldn't improve. Instead of Brute Parry 25, they'd have Brute Parry 32. Deceptive Attack for a -3 doesn't help at all and even a successful Feint won't make a dent in a Parry that high.

I suppose they could Beat, but with equal ST, they are unlikely to reduce each other's Brute Parries by more than 10 and usually much less. In the best case, then, a good Beat will at best give a 5% chance of successfully grabbing the other after a successful Beat and if they are trained grapplers, even rolls of 1-1-1 by one and 6-6-6 by the other in the Beat Quick Contest will have no practical effect on the Brute Parry of the defender, which will still only fail on a roll of 17-18.

This doesn't seem conductive to modelling an exciting wrestling match between two stone giants, since the entire match would consist of successful defences and failed attemps to grapple, with neither being able to establish a hold of the other.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Am I misunderstanding something fundamental about Brute Parries?

No, they're very powerful. If you find them too powerful:

* Obvious one: don't use them
* Base the brute parry on the ST *difference* between the foes, so if you're ST 10 and your foe is ST 30, he'll have a brute parry of 13, just knocking your grapples aside.