[Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

They don't add a per-die bonus, but that training bonus can get pretty big for large creatures.

ST 25 with Sumo at DX+2 is a +4 bonus. To equal that with brawling, you'll need HP x Velocity to be greater than 400, right? HP x V / 100 is dice, and +1 per die to that? So your ST 25 critter must be moving at Move 16 or better for Brawling to be superior.

ST 100 with Sumo at DX+2 is a +20 bonus. Big guy must slam at V > 20 for Brawling to be better.

If you're figuring the bonus off of basic thrust damage instead, Sumo still wins in both cases.

We have exhausted this particular topic, I think.

I'm not just asking because I'm looking to poke holes. Sir Michael has ST 20 and HP 26. He frequently uses magical dragonboots that allow him to fly at Move 40.

His player recently (before TG), started to raise Sumo Wrestling to improve his Slams. If Brawling is actually superior to Sumo Wrestling for Slams, it matters a lot to the player.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Does Shoves and Tackles simply add a Trained bonus to Weapon Master Slams and Shoves or does the bonus replace the Weapon Master per die bonus?

Hrm. That's a damn good question. First, I'd ask if Weapon Master adds to slams and shoves at all. If so, this feels like one of those cases where you'd take the best of the two bonuses, since they both represent increased effect via being awesome. A very cursory forum search and a checking of the official FAQ did not produce a clear answer.

Could you get a Trained bonus to Slams with Brawling with the Shoves and Grapples Perk for Brawling?

This seems like a good way to do this. A perk is a minor benefit or rules exception, and if I can default Judo Throw to Axe/Mace with a perk, getting an extensible bonus exactly like that given to weapons for Brawling for the same one point seems quite reasonable.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm not just asking because I'm looking to poke holes. Sir Michael has ST 20 and HP 26. He frequently uses magical dragonboots that allow him to fly at Move 40.

Yow, 10d slam. I see.

His player recently (before TG), started to raise Sumo Wrestling to improve his Slams. If Brawling is actually superior to Sumo Wrestling for Slams, it matters a lot to the player.

[removed the suggestion of Sumo; with a 10d slam, +1 per die from Brawling is very attractive. Actually, losing the "per die" in this case is a big deal; you might not WANT to float over to a flat progression, unless you're at DX+10 in it.]

based on the Perk suggestion, I'd let him take that, and just look at whichever bonus is better, and use it. That way he can raise the two skills as he likes, and not feel he's suffering for it.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Hrm. That's a damn good question. First, I'd ask if Weapon Master adds to slams and shoves at all. If so, this feels like one of those cases where you'd take the best of the two bonuses, since they both represent increased effect via being awesome. A very cursory forum search and a checking of the official FAQ did not produce a clear answer.

Both Shoves and Slams are damage rolls and Weapon Master adds to damage rolls made with muscle-powered weapons. If they were meant not to affect these, I should think it would warrant an explicit note.

I'm fine with taking the better bonus, since I think it would be overpowered to use both.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

This seems like a good way to do this. A perk is a minor benefit or rules exception, and if I can default Judo Throw to Axe/Mace with a perk, getting an extensible bonus exactly like that given to weapons for Brawling for the same one point seems quite reasonable.

Sounds good to me.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yow, 10d slam. I see.

He likes to Slam with the point of his sword, too. :)

When facing ST 200+ dragons with DR 15+, you need good damage to make an impact.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

[removed the suggestion of Sumo; with a 10d slam, +1 per die from Brawling is very attractive. Actually, losing the "per die" in this case is a big deal; you might not WANT to float over to a flat progression, unless you're at DX+10 in it.]

based on the Perk suggestion, I'd let him take that, and just look at whichever bonus is better, and use it. That way he can raise the two skills as he likes, and not feel he's suffering for it.

Yeah, that feels about right.

Of course, he's at DX+5 for his Sumo Wrestling now and DX+11 in his Brawling. He might be better off retrofitting his stats in light of the new rules, since Sumo Wrestling never gives +2/die on Slams any longer, and dropping Sumo Wrestling altogether. It's a bit wasteful, in light of his Wrestling at DX+11.

I'd allow him to use the 4 points he's already spent on Sumo Wrestling to buy Shoves and Tackles for Brawling. And then spend the other 3 (along with some 3 points the character already has) on other Perks and Techniques from TG that the character concept calls for and which he'd have taken if it had been available when he made the character.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

He might be better off retrofitting his stats in light of the new rules, since Sumo Wrestling never gives +2/die on Slams any longer, and dropping Sumo Wrestling

Note that +2 per die is basically +60% to ST.

On a realistic scale, this is what you'd get at DX+13 if you uncap it, but p. 7 states the maximum inflation due to skill is +50%, equivalent to +1.75 per die.

On a cinematic scale, which it rather sounds like you're doing, you can beef up the bonus such that you get +20% to ST per +1, which puts the equivalent of +2 per die at a +3 Training bonus . . . Wrestling or Sumo Wrestling at DX+4 (for certain stuff), or Judo at DX+10. That keeps, more or less, the per-die bonus structure that exists now (which is rather a lot) with +1 per die and such.

You could also just uncap the realistic bonuses, and allow on the fast progression:

DX+10 +5 or +50%
DX +13 +6 or +60%
DX + 16 +7 or +70%

etc.

The percentage bonuses make it lucrative to increase skill over ST for values of ST over 12, while the flat bonuses are deliberately calculated to make raw ST always cheaper than a +1 to ST due to sport-specific training.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Note that +2 per die is basically +60% to ST.

On a realistic scale, this is what you'd get at DX+13 if you uncap it, but p. 7 states the maximum inflation due to skill is +50%, equivalent to +1.75 per die.

Wow. I never noticed this cap. It's located in a sidebar about an alternate way to scale Trained ST and is, as far as I can see, the only mention of scaled ST being limited by ST.

So having a skill that uses the Fast progression at more than DX+10 is not supposed to provide a further benefit than the +5 in Trained ST? So if Mickey increases his Wrestling by 2 skill levels, he doesn't get a higher Trained ST bonus for it?

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

On a cinematic scale, which it rather sounds like you're doing, you can beef up the bonus such that you get +20% to ST per +1, which puts the equivalent of +2 per die at a +3 Training bonus . . . Wrestling or Sumo Wrestling at DX+4 (for certain stuff), or Judo at DX+10. That keeps, more or less, the per-die bonus structure that exists now (which is rather a lot) with +1 per die and such.

The PCs can do really cinematic stuff, but I try to avoid changing the rules to allow it. I don't see any reason to beef up the bonus, as long as other creatures and characters are limited the same way. The PCs just have to use the appropriate magical gear to have enough ST and Move to face gargantuan supernatural foes, not to mention have high enough skills.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

You could also just uncap the realistic bonuses, and allow on the fast progression:

DX+10 +5 or +50%
DX +13 +6 or +60%
DX + 16 +7 or +70%

etc.

The percentage bonuses make it lucrative to increase skill over ST for values of ST over 12, while the flat bonuses are deliberately calculated to make raw ST always cheaper than a +1 to ST due to sport-specific training.

If the cap of +5 applies even when you're not using the percentage increase, but just scaling according to the rule on p. 48, I suppose that a Perk is the appropriate method of raising it.

Should it be a levelled Perk per level of increase, like Brave (that raises the Rule of 14 for Fright Checks) or is it enough to get one Perk per skill to eliminate a cap altogether?

[Icelander]

What is the intent behind the rule on p. 9, for when ST and DX differ by a wide margin? The way it is written, it could be read to imply that any time a creature is bigger than human scale, CPs reduce DX at a rate of CP/5 and any time they are smaller than human scale, CPs reduce DX at a rate of -5/ST.

Is that just an artifact of the specific ST scores used in the examples? If so, how do I calculate the ratio for individual characters? Two methods work to produce the same result in the two examples, either to divide ST by 10, thus basing it on how much the character differs from normal human scale, or to divide ST by DX.

Of these two, I prefer the former, as it it faster to do in play, treats all characters or creatures of a given size and ST the same (which is nice, in that you don't have to recalculate for every individual ogre) and doesn't require that one treat a character's high Attributes as a negative factor in any way.

Which was the intended method, though?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

What is the intent behind the rule on p. 9, for when ST and DX differ by a wide margin?

Scaling. If you grab a ST 50 giant - or even a ST 50 super-strong hero or killer robot - with enough oomph to impart 6 CP (-3 to ST and DX on a ST 10 person), it should impair them less. The X CP per -1 to DX, where X is ST/5, does work universally. The only reason we inverted it for ST<10 is because there it's every CP imparts at least -1 to DX, and we wanted it to be clear that for weaker guys, each CP could be quite debilitating.

In retrospect, I might should have included a table for ST 1-9, and changed the scaling so that instead of 3 CP per -1 to DX from ST 13 to ST 17 (the consequences of "round normally") it should scale by easier numbers for fast, at-the-table memorization.

[Icelander]

I allowed Sir Michael's player to adjust a few techniques, Perks and skill points in light of the new rules in TG. Principally, he dropped Sumo Wrestling, which he'd been raising in order to qualify for a +2/die to Slams, as that skill no longer allows that bonus anyway.

He used the points from it and another 3 points he had to take the Shoves and Tackles Perk for Brawling and raise Bind Weapon to full skill. He also raised Sweep for Wrestling, since that is now allowed, but didn't have the points to raise it to full skill. He'll do that as soon as he has points to spend on grappling.

This means that when Sir Michael slams, he can elect the better of +1/die for his ordinary Brawling bonus or a flat +8 for the Average progression Trained bonus. For slams made on foot, moving a short distance, he'll elect the latter, but slams made as part of Flying Leaps or while using his Dragonhide Boots of Flight to fly at Move 40 will probably benefit more from the standard Brawling bonus.

Defensive Bind Weapon uses will be made at Trained ST 18 or 1d+4 CP and offensive uses are Trained ST 28 or 2d+6 CPs. Once he's gotten his Dwarven Girdle of Might for a +6 to ST and Gauntlet of Power for another +6 to Arm ST, he'll perform offensive Bind Weapons with his claymore at Trained ST 45 or 5d+10 CPs and defensive ones at Trained ST 29 or 3d+6 CPs.

In full fig, I figure he'll be able to wrestle a SM +2 stone giant with some success. Those are 18' tall, weigh some 4.5 tons and have Lifting ST 45.

It'll be interesting to see how a wrestling match against one would play out. Before TG, Mickey won the approval of the giants by performing very well in a wrestling match against one, although he ultimately lost, but I think I was using some house rules to adjudicate that.