[RPM] Misc Questions

[Ejidoth]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Again, this is the way it works straight out of the book.

Straight out of the book, 'add any exotic physical traits that the GM would permit the subject to have with an Unusual Background' (emphasis mine) is vague.

Hypothetically, let's say you cast a spell to give the target +2 DR. In-setting, the GM allows humans to take an Unusual Training perk for improved DR up to +2. The target is a 12 inch tall pixie. Conceptually, while a human might be tough enough for +2 DR at the upper end of toughness, a pixie wouldn't, so the GM doesn't allow for a pixie to take the same unusual training. So, the pixie racial template could go on a character sheet. The UB could go on a character sheet. Both couldn't go on the same character sheet.

Your interpretation is that 'the subject' is the blank character sheet of a PC, which could conceivably have DR 2 and an Unusual Background on it. My interpretation is that 'the subject' is the pixie, which the GM simply wouldn't allow to have DR 2 with an Unusual Background.

You're not wrong. You can read the rules the way you have. But please don't misrepresent my interpretation as a house-rule. It follows from reading the rules just as much as yours does.

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

As a GM I flat out disallow time-related modifiers on most advantages. There needs to be a real reason if its there. For example, if a spell grants Altered Time Rate (Costs Fatigue, 1 FP, -10%) [90] for one hour - that's fine, even though Costs Fatigue is a time-related modifier (it lasts 1 minute per 1 FP spent in this case). But Altered Time Rate (Minimum Duration, 30 seconds, -75%) [25] with a Duration of 10 minutes (for +1 energy) isn't. That's munhkin-y and I smack that down whenever I see it (which is rare given my players).

How would you price out something like Altered Time Rate if you just wanted it for 10 seconds and a heavy fatigue hit when it wore off, ALA Magic book?

[Humabout]

Looking over the rules in T:RPM, I'd say all time-related enhancements and limitations on advantages should be nixed. If the duration is "Instantaneous," there's no energy cost. If the spell lasts even one second, it costs 1 additional energy. It could always last less than the 10 minute maximum for 1 energy, though. That's a matter of flavor at that point.

That's my two cents. I yield to PK's or Ghostdancer's experience, however. Both have tons more than I.

[Ejidoth]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

How would you price out something like Altered Time Rate if you just wanted it for 10 seconds and a heavy fatigue hit when it wore off, ALA Magic book?

RPM out of the box can't handle durations shorter than 10 minutes except by allowing you to intentionally cripple your spells (by paying for 10 minutes and not using all of them), and limitations related to time probably aren't valid as they interact weirdly with RPM's built in modifier for duration.

Also, with Altered Time Rate costing +100 energy and probably a greater effect (so a minimum of 300 energy for the spell), players are likely going to try to push duration up to at least a day or so, so they can maintain it for 7 energy daily rather than re-casting it at great cost. There's just not much incentive for crippling it heavily.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

How would you price out something like Altered Time Rate if you just wanted it for 10 seconds and a heavy fatigue hit when it wore off, ALA Magic book?

You can take the Reduced Duration modifier to reduce the Altered Traits cost of the spell, but you still have to include 1 energy for the non-instant duration.

[Ejidoth]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

You can take the Reduced Duration modifier to reduce the Altered Traits cost of the spell, but you still have to include 1 energy for the non-instant duration.

That was actually my first thought, but allowing Reduced Duration on Altered Traits is probably not valid, as doing so doesn't mesh with the way duration works for rituals.

To take an extreme example...

Altered Traits, Altered Time Rate (100) + Duration, Day (7), adds up to 107 and lasts for a full day. (This is by the rules)
vs.
Altered Traits, Altered Time Rate (Reduced Duration, 1/60) (65) + Duration, 2 months (12), adds up to 77 and lasts for a full day. (This is what you'd be allowing if you let people put Reduced Duration on altered traits)

You can mitigate the problem somewhat by only allowing Reduced Duration on 10 minute durations, but it remains inconsistent with the system.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Ejidoth

That was actually my first thought, but allowing Reduced Duration on Altered Traits is probably not valid, as doing so doesn't mesh with the way duration works for rituals.

To take an extreme example...

Altered Traits, Altered Time Rate (100) + Duration, Day (7), adds up to 107 and lasts for a full day. (This is by the rules)
vs.
Altered Traits, Altered Time Rate (Reduced Duration, 1/60) (65) + Duration, 2 months (12), adds up to 77 and lasts for a full day. (This is what you'd be allowing if you let people put Reduced Duration on altered traits)

You can mitigate the problem somewhat by only allowing Reduced Duration on 10 minute durations, but it remains inconsistent with the system.

Isn't Reduced Duration a Limitation on the actual Advantage that simply limits how long you can use it at a time? Assuming it "starts" at 1 minute for infinite-duration traits (like ATR), the second ritual there would allow you to use ATR for 1 second at a time (uncertain on recharge rates) for 2 months, while the first simply gave you ATR for a full day. The former is certainly more useful (IMO), so costing more makes sense.

[Ejidoth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Isn't Reduced Duration a Limitation on the actual Advantage that simply limits how long you can use it at a time? Assuming it "starts" at 1 minute for infinite-duration traits (like ATR), the second ritual there would allow you to use ATR for 1 second at a time (uncertain on recharge rates) for 2 months, while the first simply gave you ATR for a full day. The former is certainly more useful (IMO), so costing more makes sense.

Reduced Duration is the counterpart to Extended Duration, originally proposed by Kromm in a FAQ and made official in Psionic Powers. It's not normally legal on traits like Altered Time Rate, period; its meant for things like Affliction that normally have a defined (although possibly variable) duration, such as minutes equal to margin of success.

The one you seem to be referring to is Maximum Duration, which may be okay on Altered Traits RPM advantages with sufficiently long durations (at least 12 hours, probably) but doesn't provide the desired effect: it basically gives you ATR that you can turn on for a bit, but then shuts off for five minutes and can be turned back on again, repeatedly, until the duration finally wears off.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

How would you price out something like Altered Time Rate if you just wanted it for 10 seconds and a heavy fatigue hit when it wore off, ALA Magic book?

When I wrote it up for my conversion I did: Greater Strengthen Body (3) Altered Time Rate 1 (Backlash, 10 FP, -50%) (50) + Duration, 10 minutes (1) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs (3). 171 energy (57x3). This is one of those cases where you might allow time-related enhancements on a altered trait without anything going wonky, but you must be careful. If the Duration you are aiming for is less than 10 minutes you can allow, but munchkin players will try to squeeze this for all it's worth - don't let them. Regardless, Backlash is a better fit. And yes, I know current RAW doesn't allow Backlash to be used to inflict FP or HP damage - but it will if a article goes through. :-) Besides, I've been using it for years and it really works for some types of powers.

Originally Posted by Humabout

Looking over the rules in T:RPM, I'd say all time-related enhancements and limitations on advantages should be nixed. If the duration is "Instantaneous," there's no energy cost. If the spell lasts even one second, it costs 1 additional energy. It could always last less than the 10 minute maximum for 1 energy, though. That's a matter of flavor at that point.

Yup. For the most part, you got it. There may be some instances where a GM will allow a time-related modifier on a ability - but they should be vanishingly rare.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

You can take the Reduced Duration modifier to reduce the Altered Traits cost of the spell, but you still have to include 1 energy for the non-instant duration.

The Reduced Duration modifier would require you to have a duration on the ability to begin with.

Originally Posted by Ejidoth

That was actually my first thought, but allowing Reduced Duration on Altered Traits is probably not valid, as doing so doesn't mesh with the way duration works for rituals.

To take an extreme example...

Altered Traits, Altered Time Rate (100) + Duration, Day (7), adds up to 107 and lasts for a full day. (This is by the rules)
vs.
Altered Traits, Altered Time Rate (Reduced Duration, 1/60) (65) + Duration, 2 months (12), adds up to 77 and lasts for a full day. (This is what you'd be allowing if you let people put Reduced Duration on altered traits)

You can mitigate the problem somewhat by only allowing Reduced Duration on 10 minute durations, but it remains inconsistent with the system.

Nope. That second method would be invalid as Reduced Duration affects the time the native ability granted by Altered Traits can be used - not the duration of the spell.

[Ejidoth]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

When I wrote it up for my conversion I did: Greater Strengthen Body (3) Altered Time Rate 1 (Backlash, 10 FP, -50%) (50) + Duration, 10 minutes (1) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs (3). 171 energy (57x3). This is one of those cases where you might allow time-related enhancements on a altered trait without anything going wonky, but you must be careful. If the Duration you are aiming for is less than 10 minutes you can allow, but munchkin players will try to squeeze this for all it's worth - don't let them. Regardless, Backlash is a better fit. And yes, I know current RAW doesn't allow Backlash to be used to inflict FP or HP damage - but it will if a article goes through. :-) Besides, I've been using it for years and it really works for some types of powers.

I think that version of Backlash is a little iffy, even if FP/HP damage is okayed. 10 FP paid up front with an additional 10 FP per minute would be Costs Fatigue, 10 FP, -50%... letting them skip the up-front cost seems like it should make the limitation smaller, though I'm not sure by how much.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Nope. That second method would be invalid as Reduced Duration affects the time the native ability granted by Altered Traits can be used - not the duration of the spell.

We're in agreement, so the 'nope' is slightly puzzling. The thing you're replying to isn't 'look at how you can do things', it's 'look at how wrong it is to do it this way'. As I said, it doesn't mesh with how RPM handles durations, which is that duration on an Altered Traits advantage isn't part of the advantage, it's part of the ritual.

You did catch a corner case I missed, though -- someone could certainly have Reduced Duration on an ability like Affliction were it granted by Altered Traits: it'd affect the duration of the effects of that ability, not duration of the ritual itself.