GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?

[griffin]

Originally Posted by Chris Aylott

The answer is embodied in the old line, "An artist's work is never done, simply abandoned."
....
So it's really not about comparing yourself to other publishers. It's about doing the best you can with the time and money and talent that you have, and always trying to improve your work. The market will let you know if what you're doing is good enough, and SJ Games seems to have done all right on that front.

best wishes,

There is one area where presentation is really important and it is an area where you bring in new customers - LICENSED BOOKS.

I think it would be great to do a GURPS Hellboy update for 4e with shots from the movies (the past one and the upcoming one whenever it comes out) as well as artwork from the comic. Of course, this means timing production to coincide with the movie. It also means there will be more expenses, but it would definitely get a much greater exposure for GURPS.

[dravenloft]

To the OP:
Personally... I don't think it's a sign that SJG needs better art. Sure, a few more people would buy it.

Mostly, the books with GREAT art that I've seen were lacking in even fair content. Those books to my exp get bought, the pictures scanned, a few half hearted attempts to play, then they're on the used bookstore shelf or ebay.

I for one don't think much of a system that has a large number of in print books being sold on ebay or used book store shelves that are "hardly used" and look like they were opened 4 times. Many of the pretty game books I've seen fit this.

GURPS doesn't sell heavily, but it sells a product that sells itself. GURPS books are very rare on ebay, and the ones that are are well used, have been repaired many times, and ... well.... basically it's like finding a 1e AD&D book on ebay... it's obvious they've just moved on and don't NEED the book anymore and are freeing shelf space for a new hobby/genre/whatever.

I'd much rather spend my $35 - $40 on a coherent, fun and unbroken game than one that is flashy.

Besides, I think the overall effect of all my 4e books on their shelf looks kinda cool.

[knarf]

I was very disappointed by all the Poser art in GURPS Magic. Even if they were prepared by different artists, there was a boring sameness to the pictures because they were all so uniform. Something painted, something drawn would have made it more interesting than just everything Posed.

[Shayd3000]

I would have to put myself in the "other" camp of GURPS fans. When I heard that 4th edition was to be all hardbound, I was ecstatic! I want my rulebooks sturdy and to last! I've been wondering though, when you look at the huge amount of third edition sourcebooks out there, one has to imagine at least some of them will be reprinted. I can't imagine they wont be converted to fourth (at least, I hope they will) - but I wonder if its necessary for all sourcebooks to be hardbound. Rule books like High Tech, Bestiary, Vehicles, Space etc, yes - but not sure Spec Ops or Old West could support a complete harbound volume...any way, kudos to SJG for going the Hardback route.

And, yes, I too am guilty of buying RPG's based on their covers....I bought Dark Conspiracy by GDW based on its cover....

To the folks about specialized GURPS Lite to tempt the masses...isn't that what GURPS for Dummies is for? And yes, I hate the paper that GURPS Lite is printed on! Might be nice to have a nicely done GURPS LIte with soft covers as mentioned before available for retailers to carry and set on the counter as a cheap last minute impulse buy.

George

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Shayd3000

I've been wondering though, when you look at the huge amount of third edition sourcebooks out there, one has to imagine at least some of them will be reprinted. I can't imagine they wont be converted to fourth (at least, I hope they will) - but I wonder if its necessary for all sourcebooks to be hardbound.

It looks like reprints are going to be e23 only for the most part.

[Dryfus]

Originally Posted by dravenloft

To the OP:
Personally... I don't think it's a sign that SJG needs better art. Sure, a few more people would buy it.

Mostly, the books with GREAT art that I've seen were lacking in even fair content. Those books to my exp get bought, the pictures scanned, a few half hearted attempts to play, then they're on the used bookstore shelf or ebay.

I for one don't think much of a system that has a large number of in print books being sold on ebay or used book store shelves that are "hardly used" and look like they were opened 4 times. Many of the pretty game books I've seen fit this.

GURPS doesn't sell heavily, but it sells a product that sells itself. GURPS books are very rare on ebay, and the ones that are are well used, have been repaired many times, and ... well.... basically it's like finding a 1e AD&D book on ebay... it's obvious they've just moved on and don't NEED the book anymore and are freeing shelf space for a new hobby/genre/whatever.

I'd much rather spend my $35 - $40 on a coherent, fun and unbroken game than one that is flashy.

Besides, I think the overall effect of all my 4e books on their shelf looks kinda cool.

here here(or is that hear hear??)


I dropped D20, because the books I was buying were "pretty", but lacked substance. I really like GURPS, I borrowed the basic books from a friend to review, and have decided to buy the basic books, and probably some others. The D&D books are pretty, but are horrible as a gaming system(this coming from a die hard D&D fan). I played 3e(GURPS), with some friends, and I am now hooked, and am looking forward to GMing my first game soon.

[revshafer]

Maybe the other GURPS/4E books could use some spicing up visually, but GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars is a visual feast. This company has outdone themselves on this new book!!

Thanks,

Scott

[Lupus]

Originally Posted by revshafer

Maybe the other GURPS/4E books could use some spicing up visually, but GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars is a visual feast. This company has outdone themselves on this new book!!

I agree. At least GT:IW looks a lot better than the Basic Books, Magic and Powers. There are no real flops (like the ugly Poser/Photshop pics), even though some are "adequate" at best. As a 3D artist myself, I would like to see better looking starships. But I really like the overall feel of the book. The images support the content, as it should. And I think GT:IW as a RPG supplement has more useful stuff than any other GURPS book I've had before, to begin a campaign in it's world (finally good starmaps and world descriptions in a Core book!).

I really miss Christopher Shy's art. (Pay him more to get him back! ;) His art combined to the greatly written THS setting was a killer combination... Also Dan Smith was one of my favorites. Some people seem to hate his works, but I don't. I find it clear, simple and attractive.

[Ragabash Moon]

Originally Posted by Dryfus

here here(or is that hear hear??)


I dropped D20, because the books I was buying were "pretty", but lacked substance. I really like GURPS, I borrowed the basic books from a friend to review, and have decided to buy the basic books, and probably some others. The D&D books are pretty, but are horrible as a gaming system(this coming from a die hard D&D fan). I played 3e(GURPS), with some friends, and I am now hooked, and am looking forward to GMing my first game soon.

I do like the 3.5 D&D better than previous versions, but it's still a level-based system. It's fun for me if I am playing a published D&D world where I can say that the world and system are one. But, if I am playing in a custom world, I hate the constraints of a level-based system.

As for the art part, I do very much agree that D&D books are more art than substance. Yes, art is important. Yes, the D&D books do have good information, but if they were to go with a GURPS level of art, they could cut their page count and price in half, OR even better, they could go with a "GURPS" page count, and give us more substance than art.

Sad thing is, even at e23.com they state that d20 is the most popular game system on the d20 PDF downloads... and I truly do beleive it's partially for how "pretty" the books are, and partially because of the marketing strategies of WotC. Some people say that it's cause it's D&D, the first and therefore always will be the best RPG, but the fact is, TSR was going bankrupt (their fault for spending more suing Gygax than the game was bringing in or not) and if they had not sold to WotC, there would be no D&D and no d20 system. WotC bought them, stopped the silly lawsuit against Gygax (who was winning, cause he created D&D (along with some others) and so you can't take his name off it), giving them the money they needed to keep afloat, and either they "finished" 3rd edition as WotC would say, or WotC dreamed it up, either way... WotC breathed new life into D&D that TSR never could have.

GURPS could get more customers by "going pretty" but, I think they will KEEP more customers by keeping it as it is, and get more in the LONG RUN from word of mouth about the system, than the short term "pretty book" sales.

[Pmandrekar]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

I do like the 3.5 D&D better than previous versions, but it's still a level-based system. It's fun for me if I am playing a published D&D world where I can say that the world and system are one. But, if I am playing in a custom world, I hate the constraints of a level-based system.

I for one was very surprised, to tell the truth, that D&D went with the old "Class/Level" paradigm for character development. Other than D&D, almost everyone else has gone to a point-buy system. Vampire, Hero, GURPS... D&D has a lot of exposure as a system, and is a good starting point for players, as it's a simple combat system with relatively few additional rules. I find that most players who start with D&D when they are young tend to move away from it as a system. Where it also falls short, as a system, is in portraying actions and occurrences realistically. The most unlikely outcome, when playing with a 1D20 will occur 5% of the time. On two successive rolls, you're still only talking about events that occur one time in 400.

By contrast, by playing with 3D6, and especially with 'confirmation' rolls (which, in fairness, occur in 3E as well) and you can get, in two rolls, events that occur one time in over 10,000.

The other advantage that GURPS has is that the social interaction rules in D&D are pretty low-res, compared to the combat rules. So, games that are likely to have more social interaction in them, you're better off gaming in GURPS.

So, on average, players who are looking for More complexity and realism go towards the GURPS end of the axis. Can anyone imagine playing WWII in D20? But with GURPS, absolutely!

What I'm getting at is that D&D has a lot of culture, history, well-defined game worlds (Forgotten Realms, Eberron) to play in, but the game system itself doesn't necessarily support non-combat gaming as well. I suspect that in those areas where GURPS systems interface with well-defined game worlds (i.e. Traveller, Vampire) they may do better than those stand alone game books with no additional support. I regularly decide on the game world, and then figure out how to adjust GURPS to fit the situation, which it is flexible enough to do in all cases to date.

On average, players delve more into the non-combat rules as they get older. When I was 11 or 12, I could make a weekend out of a dungeon crawl. In my mid-30's, I would be bored stiff with no story or social interaction in my games...

So, as long as people continue to play pen and paper RPG's, and age, there is likely to be a trend towards those systems that can deliver better modelling of social interactions, as well as the combat stuff. In other words, GURPS may continue to gain converts by virtue of the aging of it's players.

Efforts such as GURPS Lite are great to bring in players who don't want as much complexity from day one. I start campaigns in GURPS Lite, and slowly spike in additional rules as they become required. But GURPS really is designed for the long haul, for players who *continue* to game.

I suspect that GURPS is well aware of the demographics of their players, as well...

-Paraj Mandrekar