GURPS Dragons and Red Dragon

griffin · 01-10-2006, 06:28 AM

I'm working on a dungeon crawl adventure featuring a red dragon (I want to use the Red Dragon from the Cardboard Heroes set). I need stats for the dragon, and wondered if there are any stats for a GURPS 4e dragon available.

I looked at the sample page from GURPS Dragons, but unfortunately, the sample pages don't include the index (which is a really useful feature in checking out the new GURPS titles). The Table of Contents is also only partial. The table of contents looks pretty good, and the discussion on the boards regarding Dragons has been encouraging, however, right now I'm just interested in constructing this one dragon, if possible, in a way consistent with GURPS canon.

EDIT Again: 2010-03-07: I am using GURPS Dragons as well as the Dungeon Fantasy series and a modified Banestorm as a background setting (see below).

The adventure I'm designing could be placed in Yrth, with the exception of the elf characters -- I've constructed them all to use no metal in their weaponry (elves as I envision them use natural items - typically stuff that grows not "dead metals").

EDIT: I've ditched the idea of elves that don't use metal since I'd like to be able to place the adventure in Yrth. I've decided to place the setting on mountain with an semi-inactive volcano called Fire Mountain. It would be nice to have this be in Yrth, though I have no idea where I'd place it. The fantasy Special Ops team - the Griffins, serve the king (who I haven't yet named). There are actually factions of the special ops unit named for the body parts of the griffin - griffin's claw, beak, paw, and wing.

The dragon is the big enemy to be faced at the end of the adventure. It will need to be tough enough to take on 4-7 150-200 point adventurers (who may or may not be in various stages of injury by the time the take on the dragon).

EDIT: I am not actually using Dungeon Fantasy, but since it has been released and 250 points seems to be the build for dungeon crawl characters, I've built all of the characters to 250 points.

EDIT Again: 2010-03-07: The characters will end up being around 300 points and I now AM using Dungeon Fantasy (but also using a cinematic version of Yrth/Banestorm setting modified to accomodate DF).

I think of the Red Dragon as having a very powerful fiery breath weapon. Also having tougher scales than a typical dragon. The dragon will also be able to use its fire breathing ability more than just 3 times per day (I'm thinking at least 6). I'm also thinking of letting it use smoke as a breath weapon (it's hard for opponents to fight if they can't breath, and who wouldn't take resist fire spell and magic items into a fight against a fire breathing dragon).

EDIT: I'm still working on this. Really I think I want the dragon to be able to use his breath weapon, which will allow for fire and also smoke/noxious gas (obsures vision and chokes those in the cloud of smoke).

Here's a link to the cardboard heroes figures I will be using (I'm using the largest dragon):

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=SJG2113

Related Threads
Fantasy SpecOps Cheap Magic Gear
Griffin's Claw - Fantasy Special Ops team

digoraccoon · 01-10-2006, 06:36 AM

If you're using Gurps 4e, the easiest way to get your dragon is to start with the dragon template and build up on it. With out any modifications the dragon template can take on about three 150-200 characters (based upon my own tests in an adventure). Just add some more strength, increase the fire breath uses and maybe add at least another level of size and you should be on the right track. :)

KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads · 01-10-2006, 07:17 AM

Even a "basic" (I mean, from Characters) dragon can be a deadly adversary, if he fights with appropriate tactics: constricting enemies into a small area to use is fiery breath more effectively (catching more enemies at once, and maybe hindering their Dodge), making a good use of his Extra Attacks (remember: if an adventurer manages to slip to the dragon's back, he could simply strike him with the tail) and of his ST (grab the mage with one pawn and ask him: "How can you cast your nice spells, now?"), and so on. Do not understimate dragons!

Hobbes · 01-10-2006, 07:42 AM

The 4E appendix for GURPS Dragons has lots of cannonical 4E templates for all kinds of dragons. I used it when creating a dragon for a fantasy adventure, and it worked wonderfully. It sounds like the Adult/Large Western Dragon Template will do what you're looking for, but there is plenty of room for customization.

griffin · 01-10-2006, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobbes

The 4E appendix for GURPS Dragons has lots of cannonical 4E templates for all kinds of dragons. I used it when creating a dragon for a fantasy adventure, and it worked wonderfully. It sounds like the Adult/Large Western Dragon Template will do what you're looking for, but there is plenty of room for customization.

The table of contents (TOC) seems to indicate that GURPS Dragons has some info on different colors of dragons. Is this the case? I'm really trying to see if there is anything in Dragons which deals specifically with red dragons. I may get the book just to be able to get all of the template options as well as combat tactics and such.

jspade · 01-10-2006, 12:04 PM

Folklore doesn't distinguish between colors of dragons as such; neither, IIRC, does GURPS Dragons. Western dragons mostly breathe fire, GURPS Dragons addresses that kind of dragon in detail, along with less-familiar serpentine dragons.

Bruno · 01-10-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffin

The table of contents (TOC) seems to indicate that GURPS Dragons has some info on different colors of dragons. Is this the case? I'm really trying to see if there is anything in Dragons which deals specifically with red dragons. I may get the book just to be able to get all of the template options as well as combat tactics and such.

I'm not entirely sure I grasp where colours of dragons slipped into this. There are a bajillion different types of dragon in GURPS dragons, in 3e and 4e stats. If by "red" you mean "Fire breathing and happens to have red scales", then yes, you can make fire breathing dragons, and you can colour your dragon any way you want. They comment on D&D's habit of colour coding on page 75, but it's not like there's a "Red dragon" template and a "Blue dragon" template and a "Rainbow dragon" template or something. It's more like "This is a large western heraldric style dragon. Attach these lenses for various breath weapons and whatnot." or "This is a small crawling wyrm dragon, attach THOSE lenses for various options".

OTOH, they do have notes on customising dragons for different environments, with different breath weapons, and whatnot. And the aforementioned bajillion templates and lenses and what have you should

Captain-Captain · 01-10-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffin

The table of contents (TOC) seems to indicate that GURPS Dragons has some info on different colors of dragons. Is this the case? I'm really trying to see if there is anything in Dragons which deals specifically with red dragons. I may get the book just to be able to get all of the template options as well as combat tactics and such.

Pay attention to the Hoarding advantage [15]. To compensate Dragons for the loss of Fatigue when ST went to base HP, Dragons can use their hoard of treasure like a power stone. A BIG quirkless Powerstone with a loophole that lets you recharge it fast.

Each multiple of the game world's starting wealth provides one energy point.

A dragon with 20 x wealth has a 20 pt powerstone effect. That could be very nasty.

The recharge loophole: The treasure follows standard powerstone recharging rules. NOTHING in the advantage write up prohibits the dragon from separating 1/20th of the loot 20 times at six foot or greater intervals and letting each 'point' recharge in a day, then reassemble it into one tappable 20 point (or more for wealthier dragons but I don't think you want to push the PCs into a new wealth level after they kill that beast).

griffin · 01-10-2006, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

Even a "basic" (I mean, from Characters) dragon can be a deadly adversary, if he fights with appropriate tactics: constricting enemies into a small area to use is fiery breath more effectively (catching more enemies at once, and maybe hindering their Dodge), making a good use of his Extra Attacks (remember: if an adventurer manages to slip to the dragon's back, he could simply strike him with the tail) and of his ST (grab the mage with one pawn and ask him: "How can you cast your nice spells, now?"), and so on. Do not understimate dragons!

The team assaulting the dragon in its lair is going to be fairly formidable, a sort of fantasy special ops team. Grabbing one of the mages would possibly restrict spell casting, but it won't keep him from casting at all. Also I seem to recall dragons aren't all the great with manual dexterity and the mage would almost certainly get a dodge.

I'd think the dragon would be reasonably pull off three or four attacks each turn. One breath weapon or bite attack (not both), one claw strike (maybe two), and a tail attack. Other options include ramming (with head/snout), using wings to knock opponents back and blow up dirt/dust from the ground (and maybe deflect the path of arrows), smoke as breath weapon to choke and blind the opponents, and just landing on them with its body (of course that's rather dangerous as the invaders will have lots of swords and spears available to them).

Rolando · 01-10-2006, 12:27 PM

A dragon power is greatly increased if it is GMed intelligently (I mean as if it is as intelligent or more so than the characters)...

the great warrior/barbarian/etc, may easily be neutralized by landing over him (DX contest, a dragon with DX 16 is not to be taken lightly), a mage by grabbing or plain attacks... an intelligent dragon will use feint against a less skilled foe and brute strenght against a more skilled one....

Also, spells, the mind control and comunication and empathy are the best to waste the big heroes (the mages may have better will).

A ST70 DX16 IQ16 HT15/70 Dragon, with a good repertoire of spells is a fearsom foe even for six 200 pointers... and unless the characters plan very well the dragon will scape after disposing of two or three and recieving a few wounds... then track them and attack wile they sleep.

Even a ST40 DX16 IQ16 HT15/40 may do the same, but dodging more and attacking less...

And if the dragon is in the open it only have to dispose of the wizards and the archers... in his lair it will surelly have traps (magical and/or mundane), and it may be laberintine and dark. it may have even a few minnions (chidren, servant spirits or "tamed" beasts).

I rarely puts my players against such cunning and powerfull enemies because is hard not to kill them all and still GM the creature as it is. And most of the dragon slaying legends are clearlly GM cals or railroading of the character (the super magic sword, the poisoned lamb, etc.)

GURPS Dragons give lots of advice in this matter, but for the color thing give little, mostly sugestions. There are just to many diferent egends and stories, and color is almost never a factor for dragon personality... in D&D it is very important, as is in some stories, but they are lots more (spacially mithological) stories were color is just that.

01-10-2006, 06:28 AM	#1
griffin Join Date: Jul 2005	GURPS Dragons and Red Dragon I'm working on a dungeon crawl adventure featuring a red dragon (I want to use the Red Dragon from the Cardboard Heroes set). I need stats for the dragon, and wondered if there are any stats for a GURPS 4e dragon available. I looked at the sample page from GURPS Dragons, but unfortunately, the sample pages don't include the index (which is a really useful feature in checking out the new GURPS titles). The Table of Contents is also only partial. The table of contents looks pretty good, and the discussion on the boards regarding Dragons has been encouraging, however, right now I'm just interested in constructing this one dragon, if possible, in a way consistent with GURPS canon. EDIT Again: 2010-03-07: I am using GURPS Dragons as well as the Dungeon Fantasy series and a modified Banestorm as a background setting (see below). The adventure I'm designing could be placed in Yrth, with the exception of the elf characters -- I've constructed them all to use no metal in their weaponry (elves as I envision them use natural items - typically stuff that grows not "dead metals"). EDIT: I've ditched the idea of elves that don't use metal since I'd like to be able to place the adventure in Yrth. I've decided to place the setting on mountain with an semi-inactive volcano called Fire Mountain. It would be nice to have this be in Yrth, though I have no idea where I'd place it. The fantasy Special Ops team - the Griffins, serve the king (who I haven't yet named). There are actually factions of the special ops unit named for the body parts of the griffin - griffin's claw, beak, paw, and wing. The dragon is the big enemy to be faced at the end of the adventure. It will need to be tough enough to take on 4-7 150-200 point adventurers (who may or may not be in various stages of injury by the time the take on the dragon). EDIT: I am not actually using Dungeon Fantasy, but since it has been released and 250 points seems to be the build for dungeon crawl characters, I've built all of the characters to 250 points. EDIT Again: 2010-03-07: The characters will end up being around 300 points and I now AM using Dungeon Fantasy (but also using a cinematic version of Yrth/Banestorm setting modified to accomodate DF). I think of the Red Dragon as having a very powerful fiery breath weapon. Also having tougher scales than a typical dragon. The dragon will also be able to use its fire breathing ability more than just 3 times per day (I'm thinking at least 6). I'm also thinking of letting it use smoke as a breath weapon (it's hard for opponents to fight if they can't breath, and who wouldn't take resist fire spell and magic items into a fight against a fire breathing dragon). EDIT: I'm still working on this. Really I think I want the dragon to be able to use his breath weapon, which will allow for fire and also smoke/noxious gas (obsures vision and chokes those in the cloud of smoke). Here's a link to the cardboard heroes figures I will be using (I'm using the largest dragon): http://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=SJG2113 Related Threads Fantasy SpecOps Cheap Magic Gear Griffin's Claw - Fantasy Special Ops team Last edited by griffin; 03-07-2010 at 02:14 PM. Reason: UPDATES

01-10-2006, 06:36 AM	#2
digoraccoon Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Orlando, FL	Re: GURPS Dragons and Red Dragon If you're using Gurps 4e, the easiest way to get your dragon is to start with the dragon template and build up on it. With out any modifications the dragon template can take on about three 150-200 characters (based upon my own tests in an adventure). Just add some more strength, increase the fire breath uses and maybe add at least another level of size and you should be on the right track. :) __________________ Dungeon Master Digo "I'm going to start rolling damage dice and then I'll let you know if Saving Throws even matter." The Arbiters Conspiracy comics at its Fnordest.

01-10-2006, 07:42 AM	#4
Hobbes MIB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Guangzhou, China	Re: GURPS Dragons and Red Dragon The 4E appendix for GURPS Dragons has lots of cannonical 4E templates for all kinds of dragons. I used it when creating a dragon for a fantasy adventure, and it worked wonderfully. It sounds like the Adult/Large Western Dragon Template will do what you're looking for, but there is plenty of room for customization. __________________ "No one ever sold newspapers by telling you the truth; life just ain't that bad." -Warren Ellis

01-10-2006, 12:04 PM	#6
jspade Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Top of the deck	Re: GURPS Dragons and Red Dragon Folklore doesn't distinguish between colors of dragons as such; neither, IIRC, does *GURPS Dragons. Western dragons mostly breathe fire, GURPS Dragons* addresses that kind of dragon in detail, along with less-familiar serpentine dragons. __________________ [][] C. Lee Davis © 2014 C. Lee Davis, some rights reserved

01-10-2006, 12:27 PM	#10
Rolando MIB Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Panama	Re: GURPS Dragons and Red Dragon A dragon power is greatly increased if it is GMed intelligently (I mean as if it is as intelligent or more so than the characters)... the great warrior/barbarian/etc, may easily be neutralized by landing over him (DX contest, a dragon with DX 16 is not to be taken lightly), a mage by grabbing or plain attacks... an intelligent dragon will use feint against a less skilled foe and brute strenght against a more skilled one.... Also, spells, the mind control and comunication and empathy are the best to waste the big heroes (the mages may have better will). A ST70 DX16 IQ16 HT15/70 Dragon, with a good repertoire of spells is a fearsom foe even for six 200 pointers... and unless the characters plan very well the dragon will scape after disposing of two or three and recieving a few wounds... then track them and attack wile they sleep. Even a ST40 DX16 IQ16 HT15/40 may do the same, but dodging more and attacking less... And if the dragon is in the open it only have to dispose of the wizards and the archers... in his lair it will surelly have traps (magical and/or mundane), and it may be laberintine and dark. it may have even a few minnions (chidren, servant spirits or "tamed" beasts). I rarely puts my players against such cunning and powerfull enemies because is hard not to kill them all and still GM the creature as it is. And most of the dragon slaying legends are clearlly GM cals or railroading of the character (the super magic sword, the poisoned lamb, etc.) GURPS Dragons give lots of advice in this matter, but for the color thing give little, mostly sugestions. There are just to many diferent egends and stories, and color is almost never a factor for dragon personality... in D&D it is very important, as is in some stories, but they are lots more (spacially mithological) stories were color is just that.