Golems and No-Mana Shutdown

[simulatoralive]

Here's a possible explanation that fits the rules as written:

It's possible that golems are animated by some kind of summoned or magically created spirit that imparts the ability to move independently on what is effectively a statue. You could think of the statue as being possessed.

Thus, they can continue to move in a No Mana Area, because the lasting effect of the Golem spell is not magical, just like some stone that's been shaped by magic is unaffected by a No Mana Area.

However, they're affected by Pentagram, due to the unnatural nature of the animating spirit.

The reason this explanation appeals to me is that this was the explanation for how golems were animated in 2nd edition AD&D. In that system, they're animated by a summoned elemental spirit and I never saw any reason that they'd stop functioning without mana.

[David Johnston2]

Elementals wouldn't get along with no-mana areas either. No, Golem is an Enchantment spell and can be presumed to operate like other Enchantments in no-mana areas...if any exist.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Thanks, the "always on" in Clay Golem helped me along the most.

But then another player pointed out, and I think he's correct, those books (DF2, Magic) were published before the Disads of No-Mana Shutdown or Mana Dependency were published or invented. So I wonder if since golems are "made" of magic, are an enchantment, are a spell effect, are a magic item, etc... if they ought to stop working.

Opinions are welcome.

Oh, and thanks for the responders that posted while I took a long time to write this part. It should be noted that this is therefore sort out of sequence with some of the thread.

Dependency is in Basic:Characters, and Dependency (Mana) appears in Fantasy, which was released before Magic - and definitely DF.

Several of the Undead Templates in Magic include Dependency (Mana), but Golem does not - so it would appear to be an intentional omission.

No-Mana Shutdown first appeared in Thaumatology which was released between DF4 and DF5.

[simulatoralive]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Elementals wouldn't get along with no-mana areas either. No, Golem is an Enchantment spell and can be presumed to operate like other Enchantments in no-mana areas...if any exist.

And you're missing my point.

Elementals are not magical creatures in 2nd edition AD&D. They're extra-planar. Usually summoned by magic, yes, but not normally affected by a lack of mana. However, a no mana area would definitely shut down the spell that controls their actions, allowing them to go berserk and attack the summoner.

Also, an elemental spirit is not the same thing as an elemental.

I was simply using it as one possible explanation that can explain the rules as written. Every GM's campaign works the way they say it does. There is no single correct answer.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It stops the creature from throwing totally mundane objects through the pentagram. That ssems like a mental thing from me.

Agreed. And, to answer the question about magic items, I think a mundane creature can throw a golem through a pentagram. It doesn't bounce off or anything, it just can't itself choose to go there.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It stops the creature from throwing totally mundane objects through the pentagram. That ssems like a mental thing from me.

Note the final text paragraph of Pentagram on p.125. Magical creatures can attempt to force their way through a Pentagram with a roll of (St+!Q/2) v. the Skill at which the Pentagram was cast.

You could call Pentagram an average of Mental and Physical things but it seems clearer to me to call it a Magical thing.

While we're noting what was published first it is relevant to note that until 4e Golems were more clearly Enchanted Items only with fixed stats and costs per material type. 4e changed this with a flexible spell that uses a thing that is like a _Character_ Template but it uses that to calculate an Energy cost for the Enchantment process.

A "Golem" bought as an Ally with character pts is definitely a Character and needs a full sheet with all Ads and Disads noted.

A Golem as defined by the Golem Spell is created with an Enchanting process and not direct expenditure of character pts and should be treted in all ways as a Enchanted Item.

[David Johnston2]

Hunh. Then there's a reason NOT to include Mana Shutdown if it's for calculating the fatigue cost. Not working in No Mana Areas is inherent in being an entity of enchantment. Not including that disad isn't an option.

[Phil Masters]

The inability of a demon (or, probably, a golem) to chuck a mundane rock through a pentagram is easily explained. You just have to take a leaf out of the Ars Magica book and assume Aristotelian physics.

The rock continues to move along its path because it is continuously impelled. The impulsion to the rock is provided by magic (in this case a magical being). The pentagram stops magic. QED.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

The inability of a demon (or, probably, a golem) to chuck a mundane rock through a pentagram is easily explained. You just have to take a leaf out of the Ars Magica book and assume Aristotelian physics.

The rock continues to move along its path because it is continuously impelled. The impulsion to the rock is provided by magic (in this case a magical being). The pentagram stops magic. QED.

Feel free to explain more, I would be interested.

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by b-dog

Feel free to explain more, I would be interested.

You may wish to look at the wiki entry on the subject here, that covers some of the basic assumptions made (simplified of cause).