Combat Variants and the 3 Second Round

[kdarc]

Hail forumites!

Back to the forums after a long absence, and working on a new game. In the process of this, I'm rediscovering many parts of GURPS with great vigor, including the combat system.

The last time I actually played GURPS is soon about a years time ago, and I remember enjoying much of the combat system, even if my players thought it a bit cumbersome. But always interested in seeing what other people have done, I stumbled upon this page : http://www.tabcreations.com/rpwiki/i...ion_.26_Revamp

It uses a three second round as oppossed to one second, and overall, I think it looks pretty good. There are some things I worry about, balance-wise. For instance, I'm sure I like how much movement most of the maneuvers have - full move for All-Out Defense strikes me as a bit odd. I'm considering using this a framework for my upcoming game, as I really like the 3 second round and my players have responded positively to the idea.

Does anyone have experience with such a variant? Any thoughts about the rules presented on the page in question? I feel the system would be easily combined with most of the extra options from Martial Arts, but if there are any issues, I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Cheers!

[DukeofDellot]

I've been doing this for a while without having been given the idea from an outside source.

It makes players that are less... uh... it makes the more casual player take to the game better, I find. But maybe my observations are biased... I don't know.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Seems too simplified, to me, and creates all sorts of weird issues with picturing how things flow. Having all the maneuvers with the exact same speed cuts a lot of the distinction between them, and makes a regular Move maneuver particularly lacking (Where you may move no more than a maneuver that lets you do something, too). And I'm not sure why All-Out Attack got nerfed (Half-strength Determined, no Double). And that's all ignoring the realization that everyone is moving around at a casual walking pace even on an All-Out charge, with Move rarely reaching even as fast as a brisk jog.

I'm particularly not seeing why this is a 3-second turn. All it did was remove a few options and flatten movement rates. You could do the same thing with 1-second turns without the bizarre time-dilation effect. I particularly wonder how something like that would play with rapid-fire rules, for instance.

[Anthony]

While there's reasons to increase the turn length in GURPS (frankly, GURPS lets you do too much in 1s; movement rates are superhuman, attack rates are superhuman without taking a damage penalty), it's not terribly related to simplification.

[kdarc]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Seems too simplified, to me, and creates all sorts of weird issues with picturing how things flow. Having all the maneuvers with the exact same speed cuts a lot of the distinction between them, and makes a regular Move maneuver particularly lacking (Where you may move no more than a maneuver that lets you do something, too). And I'm not sure why All-Out Attack got nerfed (Half-strength Determined, no Double). And that's all ignoring the realization that everyone is moving around at a casual walking pace even on an All-Out charge, with Move rarely reaching even as fast as a brisk jog.

I'm particularly not seeing why this is a 3-second turn. All it did was remove a few options and flatten movement rates. You could do the same thing with 1-second turns without the bizarre time-dilation effect. I particularly wonder how something like that would play with rapid-fire rules, for instance.

I tend to agree, and the more I look into it, this example of a three-second round seems sort-of dysfunctional. Definitely doesn't do what it sets out to.

Originally Posted by Anthony

While there's reasons to increase the turn length in GURPS (frankly, GURPS lets you do too much in 1s; movement rates are superhuman, attack rates are superhuman without taking a damage penalty), it's not terribly related to simplification.

Yeah, that's one of the things I really don't like about the combat system - movements are positively superhuman. Been thinking about modifying the maneveurs to stay pretty much as they are, but generally make movement less extreme. As for attack rates - true, they aren't exactly the best either, but in my experience they're adequate for slightly lower-powered games. When you move into more powerful territory, they get kinda extreme.

[Phantasm]

A few thoughts on a 3-second turn:

Melee Attack: You can attack three times with no penalty or bonus, or make a single attack at +2, or make two attacks, one at +1, the other at no bonus. You can move up to 2 yards before or after the primary attack (which could be between the two attacks). This gives the primary attack, assuming one or two attacks, the benefits of Evaluate - if doing three attacks, no time to Evaluate. Defend at no penalty. One or more of these attacks can be a Feint.

Ranged Attack: You can make three attacks with no penalty or bonus, or one attack with the weapon's Acc bonus +1, or two attacks, one with the weapon's Acc bonus, the other at no bonus. Movement is as for the Melee Attack. This gives the primary attack the benefits of Aiming - if doing three attacks, no time to Aim. Defend at no penalty.

All-Out Attack (Double): You double the number of attacks or Feints you can make on the attack, but sacrifice your defenses.

All-Out Attack (Determined): Your attack is at an additional +2 to hit, but in being so concentrated on the attack you sacrifice your defenses. This is the only attack you may make, but enjoys the full benefits of Evaluate or Aim.

All-Out Attack (Strong): Your primary melee attack does x1.25 more damage. This is the only attack you may make, but enjoys the full benefits of Evaluate. However, in being so focused on the attack you sacrifice your defenses.

All-Out Defense (Double): Normally, you may defend up to three attacks your turn with no penalty. This doubles the number of no-penalty defenses; it also doubles your movement rate.

All-Out Defense (Determined): All of your defenses enjoy a +2 bonus.

Move: Move up to thrice your Move speed; in short, you're assumed to be running.

Move-and-Attack: You may move up to three times your Move and deliver a single Attack; no changes on the cap. In a more gritty campaign you may only run in a straight line; more cinematic campaigns can have you moving in circles or a zig-zag.

Concentrate: For skill purposes, no changes. For spell-casting purposes, you may cast one spell at no penalty, or two spells at -3 penalty each. (You may buy this off with a Dual Spell Casting technique (Tech/H).)

Thoughts? Anything I might have missed?

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Anthony

While there's reasons to increase the turn length in GURPS (frankly, GURPS lets you do too much in 1s; movement rates are superhuman, attack rates are superhuman without taking a damage penalty), it's not terribly related to simplification.

I just hand wave it. After a combat in which everyone had 6 turns, I might say, "That took about 10 seconds" and leave it at that. If there is a ticking time bomb in the room and every second matters, then I might assume that everyone is so hyped-up on adrenaline because of the bomb that they really are moving at extreme speeds.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Anthony

While there's reasons to increase the turn length in GURPS (frankly, GURPS lets you do too much in 1s; movement rates are superhuman, attack rates are superhuman without taking a damage penalty), it's not terribly related to simplification.

Making two strong cuts in a second (an Attack and a Parry) while passing (taking a Step) is pretty easy for anyone with half a dozen points in combat skills, and sometimes the Attack, the Step, and the Parry are the same tempo (ie. movement). Running five or six metres is also easy for an unencumbered man in a hurry.

[JP42]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Making two strong cuts in a second (an Attack and a Parry) while passing (taking a Step) is pretty easy for anyone with half a dozen points in combat skills, and sometimes the Attack, the Step, and the Parry are the same tempo (ie. movement). Running five or six metres is also easy for an unencumbered man in a hurry.

I think that, for a system as detailed at GURPS is, there's not enough benefit to choosing a weapon that forces longer than one-second passes. Yes, you can have a weapon that requires being readied after each attack, but damned few people choose them (in my experience) because adding one to reach and one or two to damage isn't worth halving their attack opportunities.

As far as movement goes, the lack of an acceleration mechanic harms the realism. One can go from dead stop to six yards in a second to dead stop without any real concern, in a span of three seconds.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by JP42

As far as movement goes, the lack of an acceleration mechanic harms the realism. One can go from dead stop to six yards in a second to dead stop without any real concern, in a span of three seconds.

With 3-second turns, sustained movement rates are unrealistically slow if you just translate GURPS mechanics to the longer turns. Moving your full move every 3-second turn implies you are going from dead stop to full speed to dead stop, repeatedly. You've got to introduce some acceleration rules, and to me it doesn't seem much easier to do it in 3-second time as in 1-second time.

The other place GURPS is lacking in turn sequence is in the "flurry of rapid blows followed by a lull as fighters circle looking for an opening." Again, though, 3-second turns don't really model that any better (in fact, IMO, it does worse).