How tough should creatures be?

Silvermane · 08-02-2013, 05:43 PM

I'm not GMing but my GM friend is asking me this question.

The PCs are starting in a prison in a Mad Doctor's castle and must escape. On the lower levels there are the failed Experiments, people who are still moving but are missing body parts. (Mostly the head) They're not any harder to kill than normal.

First question is, would 10 HP monsters be too tough for the 4 PCs? Considering that they will fight in groups.

Second, the characters are all 150 points and of various TL, (Mostly modern and nothing higher than 7.) Guns are around, but are rare, crappy and ill maintained. Think Fallout. How tough should enemies NORMALLY be?

lexington · 08-02-2013, 06:03 PM

It's hard to gauge how "tough" an enemy should generally be. Tactics and ancillary powers make a big difference.

A 10HP person without armor can be put out of a fight by one gun shot to the vitals, not always dead but generally unable to continue. A hit from a sword is also extremely effective without armor and gives a huge shock penalties that puts them into a death spiral if their opponent can keep it up.

On 150 points PCs could use either weapon effectively unless they're not making people who would know how to fight.

If it comes down to fists four people would need good tactics to fend off a mob.

Ulzgoroth · 08-02-2013, 06:08 PM

HP isn't a very useful measure of how tough an opponent is! More HP makes things harder of course, but I'd worry much more about what they can do and what they can ignore than how much sack-of-HP they boast. Especially when you're talking about a modest value like 10.

What are their attacks and movement? What's their DR and active defense? Considering they may not have heads, what are their senses?

"Normally" is also not particularly well defined. Do you think a 'normal' opponent is one that any one PC can beat? Or can beat two of? Or one that only the strongest PCs can beat one on one? Or one that the party as a whole can take one or two of? And regardless, knowing that the PCs are 150 points isn't very useful in figuring out what they can beat in a fight...you can make a 150 point character who wouldn't be able to handle an angry housecat.

D10 · 08-02-2013, 06:11 PM

Make it thought with some extra tidbits

Maybe theres pools of acid in the room where the largest battle happens, and the "victims" main tactic could be a mix of a flying tackle with a wild swind.

7 people grappling the 4 pcs for their lifes in a room with pools of acid could be the end of a ill prepared group right there!

Also, resident evil style dogs, basically anything that will try to take them down as well as attack them, will give them fits I think.

Regarding how thought it should be, I think it should always be better to fight to the best of your habilities, so monsters must be thought enough as to not to be so trivial can they can steamrolled regardless of tactics.

Sunrunners_Fire · 08-02-2013, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GURPS Basic, pg 487

Heroic (100-200 points): People at the realistic pinnacle of physical, mental, or social achievement; e.g., Navy SEALs, world-class scientists, and millionaires. Most full-time adventurers start their careers at around 150 points.

... means they are inferior to what you see in movies and video games. They are not larger-than-life characters. In terms of actual mechanical competency, they are probably only slightly more competent than henchmen (125 points), less competent than sidekicks (200 points), dungeon delvers (250 points) and monster hunters (400 points). Imagine the characters were you; they are about as competent in general terms as a regular person with better-than-you levels of performance within their chosen niches. Pit them against stuff tuned for normal people and then slowly ramp up the difficulty as appropriate and necessary.

They be squishy. Handle with care.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvermane

of various TL, (Mostly modern and nothing higher than 7.)

... modern is TL 8 in 4th Edition. Are you using 3rd Edition?

Silvermane · 08-02-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

... modern is TL 8 in 4th Edition. Are you using 3rd Edition?

Yeah, sorry. It's 4th Ed. I was going by memory and I could have swore TL 8 was High tech cyber space stuff.

Flyndaran · 08-02-2013, 07:00 PM

It really depends if the players treat combat as dangerous or hit points like D&D scuff marks.

gilbertocarlos · 08-02-2013, 07:38 PM

What weapons do they have? what weapons the enemy have?

They may seem unarmed, but the Strong guy can easily pick up a huge pipe, the Agile guy can improvise a knife and the Smart guy can create at least a bow.

By the same token, the enemy may have assault rifles yet only shoot at less than 10y, or the players can stay on a closed space, take them down, pick up their weapons and then run to the hills where they can see the enemy a mile away.

Sunrunners_Fire · 08-02-2013, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvermane

Yeah, sorry. It's 4th Ed. I was going by memory and I could have swore TL 8 was High tech cyber space stuff.

Heh. I was asking because modern is TL 7 in 3E with the ultra-tech stuff being 8+. They redefined what the numbers meant when they moved to 4E; modern is 8, ultra-tech is 9+.

Silvermane · 08-02-2013, 08:02 PM

One of the characters is a Hitman, decent Brawling skill, armed with a .38 special. (13 Punch, 1d-1, 15 guns, 2d-1)(Also unfortunately the only character with a full character sheet.)

Another is a serial killer armed with knives... unsure of his exact stats.

Another is a Mantis creature who has learned a supernatural martial art that lets him go toe to toe with demons. (Which may or may not give him an advantage against these creatures... guessing it will act like a normal martial art to them.)

Last one is a combat medic... his combat stats are unknown to me.

Sooo... I guess the Hitman is the one to assume. I can't imagine the other characters being much better than he is. The enemies are all just unarmed, relying on whatever strength they have.

08-02-2013, 05:43 PM	#1
Silvermane Join Date: Jun 2013	How tough should creatures be? I'm not GMing but my GM friend is asking me this question. The PCs are starting in a prison in a Mad Doctor's castle and must escape. On the lower levels there are the failed Experiments, people who are still moving but are missing body parts. (Mostly the head) They're not any harder to kill than normal. First question is, would 10 HP monsters be too tough for the 4 PCs? Considering that they will fight in groups. Second, the characters are all 150 points and of various TL, (Mostly modern and nothing higher than 7.) Guns are around, but are rare, crappy and ill maintained. Think Fallout. How tough should enemies NORMALLY be?

08-02-2013, 06:03 PM	#2
lexington Join Date: Jan 2010	Re: How tough should creatures be? It's hard to gauge how "tough" an enemy should generally be. Tactics and ancillary powers make a big difference. A 10HP person without armor can be put out of a fight by one gun shot to the vitals, not always dead but generally unable to continue. A hit from a sword is also extremely effective without armor and gives a huge shock penalties that puts them into a death spiral if their opponent can keep it up. On 150 points PCs could use either weapon effectively unless they're not making people who would know how to fight. If it comes down to fists four people would need good tactics to fend off a mob.

08-02-2013, 06:08 PM	#3
Ulzgoroth Join Date: Jul 2008	Re: How tough should creatures be? HP isn't a very useful measure of how tough an opponent is! More HP makes things harder of course, but I'd worry much more about what they can do and what they can ignore than how much sack-of-HP they boast. Especially when you're talking about a modest value like 10. What are their attacks and movement? What's their DR and active defense? Considering they may not have heads, what are their senses? "Normally" is also not particularly well defined. Do you think a 'normal' opponent is one that any one PC can beat? Or can beat two of? Or one that only the strongest PCs can beat one on one? Or one that the party as a whole can take one or two of? And regardless, knowing that the PCs are 150 points isn't very useful in figuring out what they can beat in a fight...you can make a 150 point character who wouldn't be able to handle an angry housecat. __________________ I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.

08-02-2013, 06:11 PM	#4
D10 Join Date: May 2009 Location: In Rio de Janeiro, where it was cyberpunk before it was cool.	Re: How tough should creatures be? Make it thought with some extra tidbits Maybe theres pools of acid in the room where the largest battle happens, and the "victims" main tactic could be a mix of a flying tackle with a wild swind. 7 people grappling the 4 pcs for their lifes in a room with pools of acid could be the end of a ill prepared group right there! Also, resident evil style dogs, basically anything that will try to take them down as well as attack them, will give them fits I think. Regarding how thought it should be, I think it should always be better to fight to the best of your habilities, so monsters must be thought enough as to not to be so trivial can they can steamrolled regardless of tactics.

08-02-2013, 07:00 PM	#7
Flyndaran Untagged Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon	Re: How tough should creatures be? It really depends if the players treat combat as dangerous or hit points like D&D scuff marks. __________________ Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.

08-02-2013, 07:38 PM	#8
gilbertocarlos Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil	Re: How tough should creatures be? What weapons do they have? what weapons the enemy have? They may seem unarmed, but the Strong guy can easily pick up a huge pipe, the Agile guy can improvise a knife and the Smart guy can create at least a bow. By the same token, the enemy may have assault rifles yet only shoot at less than 10y, or the players can stay on a closed space, take them down, pick up their weapons and then run to the hills where they can see the enemy a mile away.

08-02-2013, 08:02 PM	#10
Silvermane Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: How tough should creatures be? One of the characters is a Hitman, decent Brawling skill, armed with a .38 special. (13 Punch, 1d-1, 15 guns, 2d-1)(Also unfortunately the only character with a full character sheet.) Another is a serial killer armed with knives... unsure of his exact stats. Another is a Mantis creature who has learned a supernatural martial art that lets him go toe to toe with demons. (Which may or may not give him an advantage against these creatures... guessing it will act like a normal martial art to them.) Last one is a combat medic... his combat stats are unknown to me. Sooo... I guess the Hitman is the one to assume. I can't imagine the other characters being much better than he is. The enemies are all just unarmed, relying on whatever strength they have.