Defaults; how do they work

[kirbwarrior]

Now, I've read over the rules, and the FAQ, and I've always thought that, when you put 4pts into, say, Spear from Staff -2, that you now have the Spear skill at Staff -1. But my GM is thinking that those 4pts are only improving the default, not saying you actually have the skill.

Can anyone clear this up? I hope my GM's interpretation is wrong, it seems both unrealistic and bad/unnecessarily complicated for a game.

Thanks ahead of time.

EDIT: My GM seems to think that their interpretation is realistic. That seems to be a huge thing in our debate.

[Nereidalbel]

If you put points into the skill, you have the skill. The only exception is if you use a dabbler perk to have effective skill above the default, but not high enough to say you *really* know the skill.

[whswhs]

Say that you have DX 12, and you put 4 points into Spear. That gives you Spear-13.

Your default in Staff is either DX-5 or Spear-2; that is, you have either Staff-7 or Staff-11, whichever is better. Obviously you take Staff-11! That's equivalent to what you would get if you didn't have Spear, and you put 1 point into Staff.

Now, say that you want to have Staff-13. If you didn't have Spear, you would have to put 4 points into Staff. But you get Staff-11 free from Spear-13. So you only have to pay the difference between Staff-11 and Staff-13, which is 3 points. You get a discount, in other words.

Bill Stoddard

[kirbwarrior]

But putting even a single point into Spear, regardless of how or why, makes it so I have all benefits of having the Spear skill (aka, I have it, nothing withheld)?

To give a similar situation, I have Broadsword at DX+10. Assuming DX10, I have it at 20. I also have Rapier at 16 (Broadsword -4). I don't get any of the benefits of fencing, according to B173. If I put 4pts into Rapier, do I now? Can I do the same by putting only 1 pt into Rapier, to signify that I have Rapier 16, and not a default of 16?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

But putting even a single point into Spear, regardless of how or why, makes it so I have all benefits of having the Spear skill (aka, I have it, nothing withheld)?

To give a similar situation, I have Broadsword at DX+10. Assuming DX10, I have it at 20. I also have Rapier at 16 (Broadsword -4). I don't get any of the benefits of fencing, according to B173. If I put 4pts into Rapier, do I now? Can I do the same by putting only 1 pt into Rapier, to signify that I have Rapier 16, and not a default of 16?

From:

DX 10
Broadsword DX/A - DX+10 20 [40]
Rapid DX/A - DX+6 16 [0]

To:

DX 10
Broadsword DX/A - DX+10 20 [40]
Rapier DX/A - DX+7 17 [4]

... is legal and gives you all the benefits of having the Rapier skill.

To:

DX 10
Broadsword DX/A - DX+10 20 [40]
Rapier DX/A - DX+6 16 [1]

... is not legal and gives you no benefits. You must spend the difference in point cost between your new level and your default level; partial expenditures don't do anything. A permissive GM may allow a custom perk to do so, but it doesn't sound like that's the way to bet at the moment.

[Anaraxes]

I imagine the bone of contention here is the +2 to Parry with Staff, and whether this counts as a "special defense" for purposes of this bit:

Originally Posted by B173

Regardless of your default skill level, you do not get the special benefits of a skill – especially combat bonuses such as improved damage, special defenses, and unpenalized off-hand use – when you use a skill at default. To enjoy these benefits, you must spend at least one point on the skill.

For other purposes, like just rolling to hit, there's no difference between "not having the skill, but having it at default N" and "having the skill at N".

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Now, I've read over the rules, and the FAQ, and I've always thought that, when you put 4pts into, say, Spear from Staff -2, that you now have the Spear skill at Staff -1. But my GM is thinking that those 4pts are only improving the default, not saying you actually have the skill.

Can anyone clear this up? I hope my GM's interpretation is wrong, it seems both unrealistic and bad/unnecessarily complicated for a game.

Thanks ahead of time.

EDIT: My GM seems to think that their interpretation is realistic. That seems to be a huge thing in our debate.

Assigning points to Staff does not give you points in Spear, and so assigning points to Staff does not give you the Spear skill. Instead, it improves the default value of Spear to the better of DX-5 or Staff-2. It remains a default and not a skill (meaning you can't put points into Spear Techniques unless you put points into Spear first). You can then assign points to Spear so as to improve it from the default, but until you spend points in Spear it is still a use of the Staff skill.

Training in Staff Fighting makes you better at Spear Fighting, but it doesn't train you in Spear Fighting.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Now, I've read over the rules, and the FAQ, and I've always thought that, when you put 4pts into, say, Spear from Staff -2, that you now have the Spear skill at Staff -1. But my GM is thinking that those 4pts are only improving the default, not saying you actually have the skill.
.

Your GM is wrong by the rules as written. If you put enough points into it to raise it, you now have the skill for all purposes. Not that I'm sure why it matters.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Your GM is wrong by the rules as written. If you put enough points into it to raise it, you now have the skill for all purposes.

Yes, Kirbwarrior. You are right and your GM is wrong (just tell him with diplomacy).

As said above, the rule is very simple: as soon as you spent one full point in a skill, it is not anymore a default (even if it is improved from default). The point invested means that you actually trained (according to the Improvement Through Study rules, you need 200 hours with a teacher to get 1 character point).

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Not that I'm sure why it matters.

It matters if you want to have other defaults. Skill A cannot default from Skill B if Skill B is only known by default. But as soon as Skill B is improved (no matter if it is just from default), that is as soon as 1 full point is invested in it, you also have Skill A.

Likewise, it matters for Techniques. To improve a Technique, the skill is a prerequisite: you must have invested at minimum 1 point in it (here again, no matter whether it is done from default).

Finally, you do not get the special benefits of a skill if you only know it by default. You must have invested at least one point in a skill to get them. Which is actually done when you improve the skill from default.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Your GM is wrong by the rules as written. If you put enough points into it to raise it, you now have the skill for all purposes. Not that I'm sure why it matters.

According to B173 all you need is at least one point to be able to know the weapon enough to use all the special properties.

You don't have to put enough points in the skill to raise it.