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 06-30-2013, 04:35 AM #1 gilbertocarlos     Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE TL;DR: New weapon system, explanation below, file on the end of the post. I've made an alternative weapon system, so that damage scales linearly with ST, no matter the weapon being used. I also changed the way penetration worked, so that some weapons of the same damage type(like cutting) have different degrees of penetration(see example below). If I come up or someone pass to me a better/more realist stat for any weapon, I'll change this post. So, enough with formalities, let's get to it. GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE The weapon system was remade entirely. see below everything if you have the patience to. *There is no more Sw or Thr damage, instead, every weapon has a multiplier. *The formula for damage is Striking ST*Multiplier=10X, where X is number of dices, so, someone with ST15 and a Long Axe(*2 cut +) does 3d cut +. *There will be many fractions, the way I see fit for rounding is: Spoiler:   *For people crazy about probabilities curves, damage should be 2d*X/2, for the long axe above, the formula would be 2d*1.5. *Every damage type has a wound multiplier of *1, this can be changed, start from the 1 on the size/range table, each + and – goes on the proper direction, so, “+” is *1.5, “++” is *2, “+++” is *3, “++++” is *5, by the same token, “-” is *0.7, “--” is *0.5, “---” is *0.3, this allows a greater difference between weapons, frex, a broadsword(*1 ++) does more damage than an small axe(*1.2 +), but with a lower penetration. *Many weapons changed, read below to see how. *DR was added, now, weight doesn't matter for breaking, DR does(it has the same name, but is based on DR and HP), think of it as damage to shields, except that instead of taking damage, when it does X damage, you roll to break, so, a broadsword has DR9, when someone does 10+ damage to it, roll it's HT, on a failure, it breaks. Shields also have the same thing. Pi/Imp only do half damage for these purposes. This makes some weapons more likely to break than others heavier, frex, a spear or axe breaking will be more common than a sword. What will change on my character weapon? Spoiler:   If anyone have a better stat for any weapon, please, send a PM, I based it on logic and physics, I never wielded a real sword. List of changes: Spoiler:   File with the tables(Revised at 10/23/2013): http://www.2shared.com/document/z5bs...ns_Table.html? Last edited by gilbertocarlos; 10-23-2013 at 12:33 PM.
06-30-2013, 04:58 AM   #2
simply Nathan
formerly known as 'Kenneth Latrans'

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wyoming, Michigan
Re: GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE

I appreciate rolling the Shortsword and Broadsword skills into just Sword. Also:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos *The formula for damage is ST*Multiplier/10=X, where X is number of dices, so, someone with ST15 and a Long Axe(*2 cut +) does 3d cut +.
The math for this is still the hardest part for me to wrap my head around.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos Staff: You still have a good damage and a good parry, but not both at the same time.
Thank you, I appreciate this change greatly. I was going to say the same thing about the Parry bonus and the 2-hex Reach, probably thinking the same reason.
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 06-30-2013, 06:17 AM #3 Landwalker     Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Cumberland, ME Re: GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE Just at a very quick glance, it appears that you got rid of the Longsword as it is called in the RAW and instead gave that name to the Thrusting Bastard Sword (I was very confused at first when I saw that "Longsword" had better swinging damage than a basic broadsword considering its lightness, but then saw that it has the Parry U and 5-pound weight of a bastard sword). Is there any particular reason that the "RAW Longsword" didn't make the cut for the document? Edit: Additional Question — What method did you use to assign the damages for each weapon? Was there some sort of formula / guidelines you went by, or was it just an eyeballing / personal judgment call approach? Last edited by Landwalker; 06-30-2013 at 06:39 AM.
06-30-2013, 06:40 AM   #4
gilbertocarlos

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil
Re: GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans The math for this is still the hardest part for me to wrap my head around.
A way to simplify it is use Striking ST/10 * multiplier.
So, Joe Average ST is 10, using a broadsword with *1, he'll do 1d of damage.
If he thrusts instead(*1.5), it becomes 1d+2.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Landwalker Just at a very quick glance, it appears that you got rid of the Longsword as it is called in the RAW and instead gave that name to the Thrusting Bastard Sword (I was very confused at first when I saw that "Longsword" had better swinging damage than a basic broadsword considering its lightness, but then saw that it has the Parry U and 5-pound weight of a bastard sword). Is there any particular reason that the "RAW Longsword" didn't make the cut for the document?
Yes, it is at the boring huge text. Partly it is because they are similar weapons, I could divide them, but I had a hard time figuring what the damage of both should be.
The other part is because on portuguese, broadsword is "espada longa", longsword is also "espada longa", and I couldn't have 2 weapons with the same name.
If anyone can give me stats for both, I would change them on the table.

06-30-2013, 08:08 AM   #5
Landwalker

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cumberland, ME
Re: GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE

Quote:
 Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos Yes, it is at the boring huge text.
Ah, so it is. My apologies.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos If a rule gave +1 damage, translate that into *1.2, if it gave -1, translate that into /1.2
Can you give an example, just to see the math in action?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos I want to make long fencing weapons poorer at parry in comparison to short fencing weapons, but don't know how, any tips appreciated.
Why would longer fencing weapons, which have more parrying surface, be worse at parrying? If the rationale is that they're heavier, then I don't think that penalizing their parry relative to lighter weapons is necessarily the right way to go (since you could then make the same argument for a knife being better at parrying than a broadsword). I'd prefer to use the Matter of Inches rule from MA.110 — there's no difference in parrying, but lighter fencing weapons (and smallswords in particular) have the edge when it comes to making and resisting feints. This gives the lighter weapons a one- or two-point advantage in any combat that is feint-heavy... which has the indirect effect of improving their parry ability against attacks the follow a feint (and also improves their attacks when made immediately after making a feint).

06-30-2013, 01:40 PM   #6
gilbertocarlos

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil
Re: GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Landwalker Can you give an example, just to see the math in action?
So, let's say a guy wants a halberd, but a Reach 2, 3 one, that does more damage.
A halberd is *2 cut+ + or *3 imp.
A longer handle would give +1 reach and +1 damage.
So, you simply multiply both damages by 1.2
The final answer is that this halberd would do *2.4 cutting or *3.6 imp.

Example 2: Another guy is using a broadsword in reverse grip. The broadsword is *1 cut++ and *1.5 imp.
Reverse grip gives +1 damage, that means *1.5*1.2, or *1.8 imp.
But for cutting it gives -1/die, you could rule it as simply -1/die, but if he always uses like that and wants the stats that way, it would be *0.7, *1*0.7 means *0.7 cut++

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Landwalker Why would longer fencing weapons, which have more parrying surface, be worse at parrying? If the rationale is that they're heavier, then I don't think that penalizing their parry relative to lighter weapons is necessarily the right way to go (since you could then make the same argument for a knife being better at parrying than a broadsword). I'd prefer to use the Matter of Inches rule from MA.110 — there's no difference in parrying, but lighter fencing weapons (and smallswords in particular) have the edge when it comes to making and resisting feints. This gives the lighter weapons a one- or two-point advantage in any combat that is feint-heavy... which has the indirect effect of improving their parry ability against attacks the follow a feint (and also improves their attacks when made immediately after making a feint).
Because Martial Arts say so:
Quote:
 RAPIER (pp. 227, 229, B273; illustration, p. 219) – Europe. A long, one-handed sword with a stiff, narrow blade built for stabbing (but not for parrying – rapierists often carried a secondary weapon or a cloak for defense).
The problem with the rapier isn't weight, it's momentum/size.

Last edited by gilbertocarlos; 06-30-2013 at 01:47 PM.

 07-10-2013, 09:35 AM #7 tbone     Join Date: Aug 2004 Re: GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE Interesting (and very detailed) system. Setting aside the damage system (which would take some time to digest), I like some of the more general simplifications, like wrapping Shortsword and Broadsword into one skill, and unifying axes & throwing axes into one throwable weapon (with a simple footnote for anyone wanting a non-throwable model). Plus – my favorite – dropping crushing swords from the table. (Those oddball listings are really unnecessary on GURPS' weapons tables; like you, I've always thought a simple footnote, "a sword may be made point-less for -\$X", is more than enough. [Has any player actually ever said "yes, I'd like a blunt-tipped sword"?]) One question about that damage, though: Are the damage multipliers set by fiat? Or are they calculated from some inputs in a subsystem that I'm missing? __________________ T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com | Twitter: @Gamesdiner | RSS: http://www.gamesdiner.com/categories/general/feed | Site updates (Latest goods on the site: Game design musing: Meeting weapon ST requirements (GURPS/DFRPG))
07-10-2013, 01:20 PM   #8
gilbertocarlos

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil
Re: GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tbone [Has any player actually ever said "yes, I'd like a blunt-tipped sword"?])
The closest example I had was when a player wanted a broadsword, bought the first item on the list, and didn't saw that it was GdP+1 cr, and then later said: I thrust to the vitals, then, we had a discussion because I said he can't hit vitals with a crushing weapon, and he saying that a broadsword by default has a pointy end.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tbone One question about that damage, though: Are the damage multipliers set by fiat? Or are they calculated from some inputs in a subsystem that I'm missing?
Basics are:
One handed weapons are *1.5. Two Handed ones are *2.
Any weapon can have a +, but this multiplies damage by *0.8. The more +, the worst the weapon is at going through armor.
Unbalanced weapons multiply damage by *1.25.
If it may get stuck, it is another *1.2.
The smaller cousin of a weapon get's damage multiplied by *0.8.
Curved swords algo get their thrust damage multiplied by *0.8, but are cheaper.
Some results were adjusted, rounded etc...

So, for example, a Broadsword starts with *1.5, but it is very bad against armor, so, it get's "++", and damage is multiplied by *0.8². The result is *0.96, rounded up to *1. Thrusting with a broadsword is not so bad, and, as such, they keep the *1.5.

An axe is a blade, and as such, is not the best weapon against armor, but is better than a sword. so, it get's one "+", but, it's also unbalanced, increasing damage, *0.8 cancels *1.25, and as such, axes are *1.5 +. The small axe is the little cousin of the axe, his damage is multiplied by *0.8, the result is *1.2 +.

A (dueling)halberd got a thrusting attack like a spear, one like a pick, and a cutting attack like an axe.
The base damage for a two handed weapon is *2. That's what the spear-like attack have.
The cutting damage for it follows the same reasoning as an axe. So, it's *2+.
The pick-like damage is *1.25 for being unbalanced and *1.2 for getting stuck, the final result is *3.

Some weapons got edited, for example, the great sword should do *1.28, yet, it does *1.4, part because of the Conan feel, part because it gotta have a bigger difference with the bastard sword. Another example is bad engineered weapons, like some "monk" polearms.

 10-22-2013, 02:43 PM #9 phayman53   Join Date: Dec 2012 Re: GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE Looks great! I played around with trying to make the damage from LT weapons work more realistically when compared to armor, but I tried changing the way thr and sw damage scaled with strength and then dealt with weapons multipliers after that. The problem was that each additional +1 to ST did not do enough to be worth 10 pts, some levels did not seem to do anything at all. This is a much more direct way to deal with the problem, though it looks like it took a lot of work! One thing I found on a brief glance through your table is that the Long Knife under the sword skill has reach C,1 or C, but under knife skill it has C,1 or C,1. Was this intentional, or just a typo? A question I had was whether or not you think someone should suse the cutting weapons do bludgeoning damage against armor optional rule from LT with your new system (cutting weapons will only do their +, ++, etc. wounding if it deals more than twice the DR in damage)? Also, could you clarify the lance rules where you say "use the RIDER ST/HP". Does that slash mean either the ST or the HP, or is it a division symbol? And if it is division, what does that mean? Finally, any way that you could re-release the pdf in alphabetical order by skill, as it stands it is sometimes hard to find each category because they are not in alphabetical order? Also, could you put your rounding table from your post in it? Thanks and great job! Last edited by phayman53; 10-22-2013 at 02:49 PM.
10-22-2013, 04:33 PM   #10
gilbertocarlos

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil
Re: GILBERTO REVISED LOW TECH WEAPONS TABLE

Quote:
 Originally Posted by phayman53 Looks great! I played around with trying to make the damage from LT weapons work more realistically when compared to armor, but I tried changing the way thr and sw damage scaled with strength and then dealt with weapons multipliers after that. The problem was that each additional +1 to ST did not do enough to be worth 10 pts, some levels did not seem to do anything at all. This is a much more direct way to deal with the problem, though it looks like it took a lot of work!
Thanks :D

Some, however, I have the free time at my job, and GURPS is fun, not work.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by phayman53 One thing I found on a brief glance through your table is that the Long Knife under the sword skill has reach C,1 or C, but under knife skill it has C,1 or C,1. Was this intentional, or just a typo?
Typo, it should be C, 1 / C.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by phayman53 A question I had was whether or not you think someone should suse the cutting weapons do bludgeoning damage against armor optional rule from LT with your new system (cutting weapons will only do their +, ++, etc. wounding if it deals more than twice the DR in damage)?
I tested in my game, keeping the multiplier always is not a problem, however, for added realism you can negate the multiplier as per low tech, but almost no one tries a blade against DR.(A broadsword needs ST15 to do the same damage with cutting as it does thrusting against DR3).

Quote:
 Originally Posted by phayman53 Also, could you clarify the lance rules where you say "use the RIDER ST/HP". Does that slash mean either the ST or the HP, or is it a division symbol? And if it is division, what does that mean?
ST or HP, what matters is the rider's weight, not horse strength. At least that's what Dan Howard said.
In retrospect, you should use only HP, don't know why I put ST together.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by phayman53 Finally, any way that you could re-release the pdf in alphabetical order by skill, as it stands it is sometimes hard to find each category because they are not in alphabetical order? Also, could you put your rounding table from your post in it?
I'll do that, It's actually translated from portuguese, the language we use on our games.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by phayman53 Thanks and great job!
You're welcome
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I've revised the Low Tech weapons table:

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