Mixing Ritual Path Magic and Divine Favor... Can it be done?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Raekai

I just mean that resurrection is over 1000 energy. How is my RPM Cleric supposed to reach that? I just feel like there's something that I'm missing here. With 30 in his Mana Reserve and an extra 43 from his god, that doesn't even cover 10% of the cost for resurrection. How does he get that other 937 energy? Is it just using the same other rules of RPM? I just... I don't know what I'm not grasping here.

Dude - you're bean counting with a freaking entity powerful enough to call itself a god. Just....don't. If you paragon prays for a resurrection and makes the required reaction roll give him the damn spell and be done with it. You can fuse RPM and Divine Favor a bit but you'll never balance them. In fact balancing different power systems against one another is completely subjective. You'll never achieve a balance unless they are the same system. And if they are the same system what's the point of multiple powers? When GMs and player cry out the word "balance" what they mean is "I don't want this to completely nerf everything else." Trying to find a actual measureable balance is just madness. Don't do that. RPM is balanced in my games because RPM can do damn near anything but it takes time. Divine Favor can do damn near anything too...but the god (i.e., the GM) decides what can be done. That's the best you're going to get for a balance. My little sample system interaction is useful for priests of gods of magic, spells, etc. For additional fun consider making the Divine Favor for magic itself. When you ask your "god" for a prayer what you are doing is connecting to the unconscious will of humanity (or whatever) and asking it to help you (or do as you will).

Originally Posted by Raekai

Not to mention that I'm still a little confused on the general prayer... Even on an excellent reaction roll, I can only get a result of something worth 43 energy?

You can get more mana. You're reading into it too much. That was the minimum amount of energy - I built it from there depending on the situation.

Originally Posted by Raekai

What are the pros and cons of using this versus straight up RPM? What are the major differences? Man, this could be yet another little Pyramid article all to itself. And I say could because I expect you to spill the answers for free. ;) Hahaha.

And I might write one now that I think about it. I'm pretty decent at taking a paragraph from my campaign bible and turning it into a article for Pyramid. If I do I'll contact you as a reviewer before I send it off. ;-)

I think I answered most of those questions up above. I didn't use this a lot (maybe 12 or 20 sessions) but enough I feel confidant in posting this here.

[Pragmatic]

Originally Posted by JP42

I will say that, for lower powered RPM play, it makes sense to reverse-engineer RPK's Ritual Adept advantage back into it's four component parts, each only 10 points, or making it into a four level advantage, with the first giving you fast energy collection for the first try, the second eliminating the need for consecrated space, the third for eliminating the need for contact or contagion, and the final for allowing fast energy gathering on second and subsequent tries.

It's easier to squeeze into a 250 point character, especially if you can buy it up later as you 'get bet at this stuff'.

Pick one of the Ritual Adept as a primary.

Get the others as "Alternative Abilities."

Grand total, 10 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 16.

Granted, it takes a "Ready" move to switch between them. But it gives the young adept a little versatility.

Even taking the first one for full, then spending points earned in adventuring to take the second as an alternative, then the third, then build the second into a full power, then get the fourth, etc...

[Raekai]

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Pick one of the Ritual Adept as a primary.

Get the others as "Alternative Abilities."

Grand total, 10 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 16.

Granted, it takes a "Ready" move to switch between them. But it gives the young adept a little versatility.

Even taking the first one for full, then spending points earned in adventuring to take the second as an alternative, then the third, then build the second into a full power, then get the fourth, etc...

Wow... That is a really great idea. I might have to do this for some beginning casters. Huh. Neat!

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Pick one of the Ritual Adept as a primary.

Get the others as "Alternative Abilities."

Grand total, 10 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 16.

Granted, it takes a "Ready" move to switch between them. But it gives the young adept a little versatility.

Even taking the first one for full, then spending points earned in adventuring to take the second as an alternative, then the third, then build the second into a full power, then get the fourth, etc...

Originally Posted by Raekai

Wow... That is a really great idea. I might have to do this for some beginning casters. Huh. Neat!

I've done something similar to this (I bundled 4 levels of Magery and Ritual Adept) - but yeah what Raekai said. A fantastic idea.

[dataweaver]

I love the idea of using the Devotional Enchantment rules as a way of generating energy for use with divinely-inspired RPM; it neatly sidesteps one of my pet peeves about RPM (namely, you severely handicap yourself if you don't invest points in the Path of Magic). However, I wouldn't put any sort of cap on how much you can generate through proper living, meditation upon religious texts, and so on: the time doing that directly parallels the "study time" rules, except that it pays you in spellcasting energy instead of character points. As such, the rule is essentially "earn character points through study that can only be spent on energy" — and the idea of capping how many character points you can earn feels wrong.

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

No, you have the original idea for it down.
I agree with you, I would have it add to not refill or be capped by the ER.

[dataweaver]

A few other changes I'd recommend:

• Switch the core skill from Thaumatology to Ritual Magic to represent familiarity with divinely-potent religious rituals.
• Allow the Devotion Talent (Fantasy and Power-Ups: Talents).
• I'd also allow Divine Favor to act as the "enabler advantage" that lets you perform RPM at no additional cost; but then, I'm of the opinion that GURPS focuses a little too heavily on the point accounting. Magery (RPM) caps the core skill based on its level, and provides you with an ER*; when using Divine Favor as the enabler, I'd use its rating as the cap: that is, Divine Favor 11- caps Ritual Magic at 11; Divine Favor 14- caps Ritual Magic at 14; and so on. I also wouldn't bother with an ER: have all of the energy come from "Devotional Enchantment". Possibly give a better exchange rate: IMHO, twice as fast as regular "devotional enchantment rates" would not be inappropriate. Let characters buy an initial reserve of "grace" at 50 energy points per character point (to match the doubled earning rate); but if there are any other sources of energy, they should be few and far between.
• The Path of Magic becomes the Path of the Divine. This is essentially a name change; but it's an important one: in this paradigm, this deals with Sanctity and holy items instead of mana and thaumic energy (or whatever RPM normally calls it).

* Incidentally, this is a perfect example of not getting bogged down in the minutiae: they do not attempt to figure out how many points the built-in ER "ought to" cost and then tack that on to the cost of Magery; nor do they mess with trying to discount Magery's cost due to it not giving you a bonus to your rituals, and n fact serving to cap them.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

A few other changes I'd recommend:

• Switch the core skill from Thaumatology to Ritual Magic to represent familiarity with divinely-potent religious rituals.
• Allow the Devotion Talent (Fantasy and Power-Ups: Talents).
• I'd also allow Divine Favor to act as the "enabler advantage" that lets you perform RPM at no additional cost; but then, I'm of the opinion that GURPS focuses a little too heavily on the point accounting. Magery (RPM) caps the core skill based on its level, and provides you with an ER*; when using Divine Favor as the enabler, I'd use its rating as the cap: that is, Divine Favor 11- caps Ritual Magic at 11; Divine Favor 14- caps Ritual Magic at 14; and so on. I also wouldn't bother with an ER: have all of the energy come from "Devotional Enchantment". Possibly give a better exchange rate: IMHO, twice as fast as regular "devotional enchantment rates" would not be inappropriate. Let characters buy an initial reserve of "grace" at 50 energy points per character point (to match the doubled earning rate); but if there are any other sources of energy, they should be few and far between.
• The Path of Magic becomes the Path of the Divine. This is essentially a name change; but it's an important one: in this paradigm, this deals with Sanctity and holy items instead of mana and thaumic energy (or whatever RPM normally calls it).

* Incidentally, this is a perfect example of not getting bogged down in the minutiae: they do not attempt to figure out how many points the built-in ER "ought to" cost and then tack that on to the cost of Magery; nor do they mess with trying to discount Magery's cost due to it not giving you a bonus to your rituals, and n fact serving to cap them.

Hrmmmm. Hrmmmm I say.

[dataweaver]

Late-breaking suggestion: instead of (or in addition to?) doubling the energy gains from "Meditation, Holiness, or Study", let Devotion reduce the time intervals needed to generate energy in this way.

[Pragmatic]

Originally Posted by Raekai

Wow... That is a really great idea. I might have to do this for some beginning casters. Huh. Neat!

Just another thought: what limitations and enhancements can we put on Ritual Adept sub-components?

So, for instance, making one sub-component Day-Aspected.

The only problem I see (granted, if you'll note my signature, the chances of me seeing much is low :-) is keeping track of which sub-component is the full-price one, and which ones are the "alternative ability" ones.

So, making the "don't need gestures" (IIRC?) Day-Aspected would reduce it below 10 pts, meaning that another sub-component would jump to full 10 pts, making "don't need gestures" an alternative ability, which means it probably wouldn't save any points (since it'd take a -50% limitation to reduce the 1/5 cost from 2 pts to 1 pt; unless ALL of the sub-components were similarly limited).

Still, it would add flavor. :-)