Building a mythic hero

[Anders]

This was an interesting page.

The mythical pattern of a hero

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.

[Anaraxes]

Logically, 14..22 would outline the plot for Star Wars eps 7..9 -- but Hollywood would never go for such a downer. On the other hand, it would make it a nice cycle for ascendancy switching from Light Side to Dark and back.

[vicky_molokh]

Hmm, let's check with the Ur-example of heroes, Gilgamesh.

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin - not that I heard of.
2. His father is a king - apparently.
3. Often a near relative of his mother - no idea, probably not.
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual - 33%/33%/33% mix sure is unusual.
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god - yes.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him - not that I know of.
7. he is spirited away - apparently not.
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country - apparently not.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood - seems so.
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom - sort of.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast - okay, there was a victory over a wild person; does it count?
12. He marries a princess - this is Gilgamesh, so apparently not.
13. And becomes king - stays king, basically.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully - sort of.
15. Prescribes laws, but - maybe.
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects - probably counts.
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which - does a quest count as driven out?
18. He meets with a mysterious death - I suppose you can say that.
19. Often at the top of a hill - wasn't it a shore?
20. His children, if any do not succeed him - I'm not sure we can know.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless - taken to be king of the Netherworld with the body?
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres - no idea.

[Anthony]

There's some fairly forced logic there. Consider:
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
Now, for Arthur Pendragon:
(5) reputed to be the son of Uther Pendragon,
and the author says that Arthur matches qualification 5....

[Anaraxes]

I wouldn't expect all heroes to have to match every point. That's carrying things a bit too far, putting the form over the substance.

On the other hand, the fact that there are variations and deviations doesn't invalidate the observation that there's a common pattern to a lot of mythical stories. It might be more interesting, academically, to study the differences rather than try to force-fit every story to the master pattern.

[combatmedic]

Yeah, I don't think King Arthur qualifies on # 5.

And Jesus? The author also messed that up. God isn't a 'close relative' of the Virgin Mary.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Yeah, I don't think King Arthur qualifies on # 5.

And Jesus? The author also messed that up. God isn't a 'close relative' of the Virgin Mary.

Oh, that's not what he's saying (he's saying Joseph is a close relative of Mary), though he's still wrong. Let's look at his list:
1. mother is a royal virgin -- not even close to true, I don't think we have a geneology for Mary (as opposed to Joseph, for whom we have two contradictory ones), and in any case, 42 generations later != royal virgin
2. father is a king -- we have a geneology of Joseph, and see 42 generations.
3. near relative of his mother -- no evidence for this being true.
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual -- I'll grant this one.
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god -- this one too.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him -- partially true
7. he is spirited away -- sure, we'll accept that one.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood -- valid.
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom -- he never becomes a king, but this is close enough.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully -- teaching and reigning are not the same.
15. Prescribes laws -- iffy, there's no ten commandments equivalent.
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects -- I guess I can grant this, based on Judas
18. He meets with a mysterious death -- crucifixion isn't particularly mysterious.
19. Often at the top of a hill -- well, sure, but not very meaningful.
20. His children, if any do not succeed him -- granted
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless -- well, he was entombed, but it was temporary, so we'll grant this one.
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres -- the sepulchre was built centuries after the relevant books were written; I'm not going to count 'building a shrine' unless it occurs as part of the myth.

[Anders]

Look, the important thing was to give a template with which to build mythical heroes, for roleplaying purposes. Not to argue that everyone who is a mythic hero conforms exactly to this template.

The headline reads "Incidents which occur with regularity in hero-myths of all cultures", not "Incidents which occur in all hero-myths."

Edit: Also, just because you reach a high score doesn't mean that you never existed. See Mithridates of Pontus. Only that a lot of legends have sprung up around the person. Given that there are 40 Gospels it is hard for a Christian to argue that there aren't legends and myths surrounding Christ.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

15. Prescribes laws -- iffy, there's no ten commandments equivalent.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all you strength; and your neighbor as yourself" seems pretty prescriptive.

Bill Stoddard

[combatmedic]

Oh, I happily grant that Jesus is among other things, a mythic hero. But 'mythic' does not mean 'false.'

I was just nitpicking certain parts of the list as applied to Jesus by the author.