Targeting cone attacks

[Gnome]

On targeting cone attacks, Basic 413 says:
"Once you know the target point, imagine (or trace on a battle map) a line between the attacker and that point. The cone spreads to either side of this line, out to its maximum range."

Simple question: Is there ever any reason to aim at a point more than two yards away? As long as you choose a point directly between yourself and your foe, the cone will go through the foe's hex, correct? Given that targeting a hex is already +4, this would seem to make to-hit rolls for cone attacks fairly irrelevant. Am I missing something?

[RyanW]

I don't have my books handy, but the way I'd do it off the top of my head is roll to hit the target, but use the larger SM of the target or the cone at that range (most of the time, the cone should get the SM boost for being a blocky target). If the cone is ten yards wide, you only have to "hit" within five yards of the target. But it's no easier to hit than to hit a ten yard target with a narrow beam.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Simple question: Is there ever any reason to aim at a point more than two yards away?

Good question. It seems like, if you're firing level with your target, all you need to do is point in the general direction you want in order to clip the target. I've run very few cone attacks in 4e so I am still brushing up on them myself.

Originally Posted by Gnome

Given that targeting a hex is already +4, this would seem to make to-hit rolls for cone attacks fairly irrelevant. Am I missing something?

That +4 is for targeting the ground, according to pg. 414. Great for an area attack, terrible for a cone, especially if you're blasting the ground 2 yards in from of you, short of your target. If you want it to go out to maximum range that's not helpful. It's handy for top-down dragon breath, I suppose, but they'd need have more range penalties.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

That +4 is for targeting the ground, according to pg. 414. Great for an area attack, terrible for a cone, especially if you're blasting the ground 2 yards in from of you, short of your target. If you want it to go out to maximum range that's not helpful. It's handy for top-down dragon breath, I suppose, but they'd need have more range penalties.

That's incorrect. It's specifically for targeting the hex, not the ground; this is evident in the fact that this rule is used to target airburst warheads, which obviously do not hit the ground.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Langy

That's incorrect. It's specifically for targeting the hex, not the ground; this is evident in the fact that this rule is used to target airburst warheads, which obviously do not hit the ground.

So then why do only high-tech proximity fused airburst shells get a +4, others a +3, and +1 versus flying targets? If merely aiming at a hex, regardless of where it is, is a +4, they should all get a +4, but they don't.

So it seems to me that the +4 isn't for targeting any hex, any time, but targeting some hexes, sometimes.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

It occurs to me that the variation in airburst hit bonuses can be due to wonky fuses not always going off there they should, and hence getting scatter from missing to simulate them going off early or late.

But then question is, is it a +4 for "you only need to get close with these, making the area of your target effectively larger" or +4 for "you are aiming for a specific hex of air." If it's the latter, if you can line up your cone with the target so it'll continue through a hex, you should do so, claim a +4 for aiming at the hex, and make that hex as close as possible.

Which means cones are the best damn anti-aircraft attacks ever, in a way - all you need to do is ensure your cone intersects with your target on your turn, no matter how fast it's going, and make an Innate Attack+4 roll to hit it.

It does seem to make cones really, really accurate, and leads me to think I must be missing something in the rules. Like I said, I haven't had them come up often.

[ericthered]

I'd personally rule that the +4 for the hex and the size bonus of the cone are mutually exclusive: they're both based on a larger target, and it really doesn't make sense for them to stack.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Which means cones are the best damn anti-aircraft attacks ever, in a way - all you need to do is ensure your cone intersects with your target on your turn, no matter how fast it's going, and make an Innate Attack+4 roll to hit it.

It does seem to make cones really, really accurate, and leads me to think I must be missing something in the rules. Like I said, I haven't had them come up often.

While the accuracy is less, the "annular blast fragmentation" warheads used in air-to-air missiles do attempt more or less exactly this: create a cone of expanding fragments to intersect the other aircraft.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Gnome

On targeting cone attacks, Basic 413 says:
"Once you know the target point, imagine (or trace on a battle map) a line between the attacker and that point. The cone spreads to either side of this line, out to its maximum range."

Simple question: Is there ever any reason to aim at a point more than two yards away? As long as you choose a point directly between yourself and your foe, the cone will go through the foe's hex, correct? Given that targeting a hex is already +4, this would seem to make to-hit rolls for cone attacks fairly irrelevant. Am I missing something?

because of scatter on miss. Aiming close to you rather than close to the target will effectively increase the effect of scatter, reduced the advantage of a close miss still being a hit

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Simple question: Is there ever any reason to aim at a point more than two yards away? As long as you choose a point directly between yourself and your foe, the cone will go through the foe's hex, correct? Given that targeting a hex is already +4, this would seem to make to-hit rolls for cone attacks fairly irrelevant. Am I missing something?

IMO, rogueblf has given us the RAW short answer to the "why not aim at a closer target" question.

Also, IMHO, the +4 bonus should only be used when hitting any part of a hex (read 1 yard diameter circle) with a smaller projectile. I wouldn't allow it with a cone attack because the still-hitting-on-a-miss scatter rules handle the effect of hitting an entire hex.