GURPS: Beverly Hillbillies (or: annoyed by GURPS' handling of the nouveau riche)

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I would not call the US a 'classless meritocracy'.

"Classless meritocracy" is a technical term in GURPS. It means a society where Status (also a technical term in GURPS) is primarily gained from free bonuses granted by Rank or by Wealth (likewise), and where you can only gain a level or two of Status by paying points for it.

So, for example, the president of the United States has Political Rank 8 [costing 40 points], which grants +3 Status; he also is almost always at least a Multimillionaire 1 [costing 75 points], which grants +2 Status; but his Status, as head of the world's most powerful nation, is almost surely 8, of which he has to pay for three levels [costing 15 points]. And that makes the United States not a classless meritocracy; it has at least residues of Status as inherent dignity or prestige. But such social positions are unusual in the United States; we're close to what GURPS calls a classless meritocracy.

What you seem to be talking about is more what Social Engineering calls an egalitarian society: One where differences in Wealth are restricted, to the point where no one ever gains a Status bonus from being rich.

You can, if you like, object that this terminology does not match the way the words are used outside of GURPS. But a lot of words have special definitions in GURPS or any game system.

Bill Stoddard

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

"Classless meritocracy" is a technical term in GURPS. It means a society where Status (also a technical term in GURPS) is primarily gained from free bonuses granted by Rank or by Wealth (likewise), and where you can only gain a level or two of Status by paying points for it.

Wow. What an amazingly strange definition, as it seems to presume that Wealth is a measure of merit. This can be true, but wealth being controlled by the upper classes is very common in societies with strong class systems.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by whswhs

So, for example, the president of the United States has Political Rank 8 [costing 40 points], which grants +3 Status; he also is almost always at least a Multimillionaire 1 [costing 75 points], which grants +2 Status; but his Status, as head of the world's most powerful nation, is almost surely 8, of which he has to pay for three levels [costing 15 points]. And that makes the United States not a classless meritocracy; it has at least residues of Status as inherent dignity or prestige. But such social positions are unusual in the United States; we're close to what GURPS calls a classless meritocracy.

Actually, I remember the Chinese making fun of Obama for not being accorded 'deserved' levels of Status. So probably not TL8 Status 8 after all.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I would not call the US a 'classless meritocracy'. The modern US is somewhat less class-conscious than the USA of WWII, and certainly less so than the USA of the Gilded Age, but classless we certainly are not. We have an upper class that can be divided into 'upper upper (the 1% of the population that controls so much of the wealth), 'middle upper', and 'lower upper', the latter overlapping a bit with the vanishing upper middle class. Then we have a shrinking middle class, and a growing lower class, both of which can likewise be divided in three or more. Just because it's possible to get out of the class you were born in (though it's getting harder to do that), and people in the class above yours aren't generally allowed to screw you over without consequences nearly as badly as they used to be, doesn't men social classes don't exist.

I don't so much want to start an argument about this, but you hit a point that I felt really needed correction. I suppose you might be using a different definition of 'classless meritocracy' than I've ever seen before, though (that's not sarcasm, and I'm not trying to be rude).

To further the point Prince Charon is making, the USA also has remnants of old class systems in some areas. Individuals and families, who while not fabulously wealthy, do have socail status. You've find these people in the Northeast, the Southern Tidewater, and a few other places. They are their own in groups. some of these folks used to have power on at least a regional basis a few generations ago. The power is largely gone, as is much of the wealth and influence, but the status seems to linger, for now.