Prime Directive hand Phaser damage: canon vs book

[pyratejohn]

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

I'd probably end up having to learn a new system just to make sense of it -- which is why I have almost the entire Robotech RPG from Palladium when all I wanted was the Invid stuff. If that's the case, thanks for the offer, but I'll decline. If not, sure, let me have a look.

In trying to keep this within the topic, I'll just give you the generic information:
Setting_______Charge__Notes
1 Light Stun_____1_____Stun a human for 5 minutes
2 Medium Stun___2_____Stun a human for 15 minutes, or a klingon for 5
3 Heavy Stun____3_____Stun a human for 1 hour, klingon for 15 minutes
4 Light Thermal__5_____Cut a 1m hole in 10cm of word in 3 min
5 Hvy Thermal___8_____Cut a 1m hole in 10cm of steel in 3 min
6 Light Disrupt A_12____Cut a 1m hole in 10cm of steel or rock in 30 sec
7 Light Disrupt B_15____Kill a humanoid; cut a 1m hole in bulkhead in 10min
8 Light Disrupt C_20____Vaporize a humanoid

The chart continues on from there. I suspect this should be more than enough info. Fwiw, on the next page are some rules for varying width and duration of the beam. Pretty well thought-out imho. For reference purposes, this is on page 234 of LUG's TNG RPG.

ps - pardon my funky "formatting."

[daryen]

Yes, SFU is based on TOS. Many things included in the SFU were completely because of the series (e.g. those Romulan nuclear space mines mentioned above). In general, ADB has tried to remain as faithful as possible to the "canon" and spirit of TOS as possible.

That being said, ADB has been more than willing to make changes when they felt it necessary. Where there were inconsistencies, they did what made most sense to them (which, BTW, may not be what most other fans would have done). Also, when they needed to make a change for playability, they did so (e.g. the War Eagle).

Bringing this back to the phasers in Prime Directive, this most likely falls under the "playability" issue. Having all of the PCs running around with weapons that not only kill in one shot, but fully disintegrate the target, just isn't going to work in an RPG. Because, if the PCs have these uber-powerful weapons, you can be very sure the NPCs do, too. And those NPCs are going to have the skill to use them, meaning you will have plenty of disintegrated PCs. (Unlike the TV show, the veteran captain isn't going to conveniently miss and disintegrate a barrel. He is going to hit the annoying PC.) Unless character making is your players' favorite part of the game, this isn't going to work very well.

So, even though phasers "should" be able to disintegrate in one shot, ADB made a change with canon to facilitate better game play. (Note that I don't know this for a fact. But this is the most likely explanation.)

On a separate issue, the SFU does have some time travel. The examples that come to mind are:
- Fed CA going back in time to fit a bucketload of sublight Gorn ships.
- The FX Vandal going back in time to kick a little butt and then die.
- The Klingon F5 hull mentioned above.
- The GSC Discovery going forward to an alternate future where the Andromedans win.

There might be others; that is all I can think of on short notice. :)

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

In Star Trek 2, a Type 2 hand phaser (actually a Type 4 if I recall correctly, but in game terms a Type 2) vaporized two humans (one of the Genesis scientists, and Captain Terell). They did the same all through the series too, so that's canon for a high-end pistol-type hand phaser blast.

Assuming 10HP, that vaporization occurs at the "totally destroyed" threhold of -10xHP, and that nobody was wearing armor (the scientist was wearing regular clothing, and Terell was wearing a Starfleet uniform, supposedly not armored), you need to do 110 points of damage, which translates to a little over 30 dice damage on average. They have it listed as 6d(3) for the higher disintegrate setting, which means an average hit of 21 points of damage. Yes, that will ruin your day. Yes, that has a 50% chance of killing an average human. It isn't going to duplicate the "glow orange, let out one last scream and dissolve in a couple seconds" effect seen in the show though.

What is the rate of fire on these things? I seem to recall that in the television show, Kirk and company would hold the beam on a victim for a good fraction of a second. If you have ROF 10 or some such, perhaps disintegration is what happens after you get hit by five or six "shots".

Luke

[pyratejohn]

Originally Posted by daryen

So, even though phasers "should" be able to disintegrate in one shot, ADB made a change with canon to facilitate better game play. (Note that I don't know this for a fact. But this is the most likely explanation.)

Being disrupted to death instantly versus being vaporized to death instantly makes for better game play? I don't see much logic there. ;^)
Eh, as I said, I don't have the rules, so I can't really make comment on them. All I can say is that I did flip through them and I wasn't particularly impressed.

[pator2000]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

What is the rate of fire on these things? I seem to recall that in the television show, Kirk and company would hold the beam on a victim for a good fraction of a second. If you have ROF 10 or some such, perhaps disintegration is what happens after you get hit by five or six "shots".

Luke

I LOVE that explanation. The disentegration effect is from holding the beam on target. This also makes the effect playable since you could always say that the character jumped out of the beam before it could fully fry them. It nicely explains the inconsistencies in the movies where sometimes it disentegrated you, sometimes it knocked you back, sometimes it poked a hole in you and pepto bismol came out. All without changing the 6D damage rating.

[daryen]

Originally Posted by pyratejohn

Being disrupted to death instantly versus being vaporized to death instantly makes for better game play? I don't see much logic there. ;^)

Sure. As noted earlier in the thread, a character hit has a 50% chance of dying, meaning they have a 50% chance of still being alive. That works a lot better than a 100% chance of the character literally disappearing.

[Tiger Maggot]

Originally Posted by pator2000

I LOVE that explanation. The disentegration effect is from holding the beam on target. This also makes the effect playable since you could always say that the character jumped out of the beam before it could fully fry them. It nicely explains the inconsistencies in the movies where sometimes it disentegrated you, sometimes it knocked you back, sometimes it poked a hole in you and pepto bismol came out. All without changing the 6D damage rating.

The "inconsistencies" come from the variable power settings. Stun has a couple of different settings. Kill rips a hole in you, chops off limbs, etc. Disintegrate vaporizes you with one shot. Again, Star Trek 2. Terell didn't hold the beam on the scientist, and he shot himself once, not with a burst.

There is no ambiguity in the series or movies about the Disintegrate setting being a one-shot kill (against humans or similar creatures -- there were "plot point" aliens that could survive it). There are plenty of examples of characters seeing the setting and saying "that would have vaporized me." They don't look at a Disintegrate setting and say "Hey! You could have killed me!"

[Tiger Maggot]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

What is the rate of fire on these things? I seem to recall that in the television show, Kirk and company would hold the beam on a victim for a good fraction of a second. If you have ROF 10 or some such, perhaps disintegration is what happens after you get hit by five or six "shots".

Luke

Type II hand Phaser in PD is RoF 3.

[Tiger Maggot]

Originally Posted by daryen

Sure. As noted earlier in the thread, a character hit has a 50% chance of dying, meaning they have a 50% chance of still being alive. That works a lot better than a 100% chance of the character literally disappearing.

On Kill, sure. Disintegrate was always portrayed as a one-shot kill.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

Yep, pretty much the impression I've gotten as well, being a longtime SFB fan (playing for about 20 years now). I've never seen anything that said "eh, the show doesn't count." If the show didn't count, why even CALL it Star Trek or use any of the other stuff?

Also, you are supposed to 'actively defend' your intellectual properties or you can lose them. By giving that license, they don't leave an opening to someone challenging them because they let it lapse.

The really smart thing for them to do would be offer lots of money to the copyright holders and liscenees and regain total ownership of the properties again. However, with the cancelation of Enterprise and the poor box office of the last TNG movie, I doubt Paramount is that interested in it any more.