Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Purple Haze

I find it hard to believe good old .303 isn't in the top 2 or 3. Somebody on the forum did it for Canada about a year ago and got .22LR, .303, and .30-06 as the top three.

It is likely to be among the top three deer rifles, but vermin control, fox hunting, etc. calls for a smaller chambering. Everything I could find suggested that the .308 Win is by far the most common medium caliber rifle, but I didn't really find much about the relative rankings of other rifles.

The three I mention are the most popular overall, the most popular small rifle and the most popular deer rifle.

I'd welcome more information about the kind of ammunition UK sporting stores are selling (and stocking), what kind of calibers are encountered by police, etc. This is really hard to find on the Internet, because so much frothing politics from around the world are brought up by the necessary searches.

[Purple Haze]

I would guess that you are getting rifle sales rather than ammo sales. Bolt action rifles last a long long time.

[Icelander]

Does anyone know how long the barrel of a 12G pump-action shotgun has to be to allow for Shots 3+1 in the magazine? If possible, I'd like to know how long minimum for 3" and how long minimum for 2.75".

I know the Franchi PA3 is a pump-action shotgun with Shots 3+1 and only an 8.5" barrel. I expect that it achives this comparatively high capacity because it's chambered exclusively for 2.75" shells. It might also have a very compact design of magazine tube or one that starts further back than usual.

In any event, a modified Remington 870 with a 8.5" barrel only gets Shots 2+1, albeit with up to 3" shells. I don't know how much longer it would have to be to get Shots 3+1, in either 2.75" or 3". The Mossberg 500 magazine tube looks more-or-less the same as far as positioning goes, so I'd think the issue applied there as well, but there may be a small difference. If so, I'd love to know how long you'd have to make the barrel of a Mossberg to allow Shots 3+1.

I'm also interested in knowing if there are shotgun models with magazine tubes that particularly lend themselves to such modifications.

Ideally, I want the shortest possible barrel while retaining Shots 3+1. It would help if it was chambered for 3" shells, but if there is a large size difference, I'd accept only 2.75" shells.

I'm also curious about the minimum length of barrel in common shotgun models sufficient to allow Shots 4+1, 5+1, 6+1 and 7+1 in the magazine tube. Some of these would have to be extended by the in-house armourers, of course.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm also curious about the minimum length of barrel in common shotgun models sufficient to allow Shots 4+1, 5+1, 6+1 and 7+1 in the magazine tube. Some of these would have to be extended by the in-house armourers, of course.

My 15" 870-mongrel is 5+1.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/dsc06385jw.jpg/


Chopping a regular 4+1 870 at the mag tube gives you about a 10" barrel.

A +3 extension on a standard 870 puts it even with a 18.5" barrel usually.

A mag tube can be WAY longer than the barrel without being an issue. You see this sometimes in gamey 3-gun shotguns.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/files/pho...gunshotgun.jpg

[Kalzazz]

Every .22 LR bullet Ive ever run into has been Hollow Point, when I asked about that the answer has always been 'when you make them by the millions upon millions, the lead savings from the hollow of the hollow point adds up'

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

A mag tube can be WAY longer than the barrel without being an issue. You see this sometimes in gamey 3-gun shotguns.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/files/pho...gunshotgun.jpg

They should put some sights out there.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

They should put some sights out there.

It already has a red dot and irons.

[Fred Brackin]

Something has occurred to me about your "procurement through fake export certificate" scheme and the consequences of discovery of one of your guns looks like a very serious problem to me.

The problem is that it's going to fall apart the first time one of your guns shows up. That is the export certificate is goinbg to be discovered as fake and (especially after 2001) a scheme to seciure military weapons in quanities siufficient to train and equip a small tactical force in paramilitary form is going to be taken to be an Islamist terrorist organisation.

Maybe in the 90s you could get it blamed on an extreme IRA faction (and even that draws unwelcome attention at that time) but with obvious complicity from an Islamic nation after 9/11 you're going to be put on the counter-terror watch-list and your problems go international.

If this was my scheme and I didin't have the clout to get all of my orgnaisation's activities swept under the rug as counter-terrorism I would very much prefer to be mistaken for a violent drug gang than a terrorist group.

So no batch lot of sequential serial number military weapons. Buy or smuggle weapons from the international criminal black market. Heck, every St Swithin's Day go find a real violent drug gang and off them for their weapons.

Having your weapons turn up eventually appears uanvoidable and when they dio you want to them to point in a false but credible direction to the lowest priority target possible.

The same goes for your ammunition. Matching extraction marks to individual guns mighht be oversold but the headstamps will tie the rounds to particular shipments of ammo. You could use military cast offs for training but brass unavoidaby left behind at incident scenes needs to point to small purchases on the black market and not the organised creation of a tactical force.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

My 15" 870-mongrel is 5+1.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/dsc06385jw.jpg/

Is the magazine tube on a Mossberg 500 further back, further front or in the same position? Does it waste more space?

I think I've seen* a 14" barrel Mossberg with a 5+1 magazine tube. Either the 500 or a 590.

*In pictures. Given that Icelandic shotguns are restricted to 2+1 capacity, one rarely sees anything but the most common hunting models here.

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Chopping a regular 4+1 870 at the mag tube gives you about a 10" barrel.

Huhn. Then why does taking a further 1.5" of that barrel force you to give up two of those rounds, as seen on the Serbu Super Shorty in Tactical Shooting (specifically noted to be a modified Remington 870)?

The shortest pump action I see the Rangers using would ideally have a barrel of under 10", but still able to fit 3+1 3" shells. Apparently, cutting a Remington 870 to 8.5" is too much, but a Franchi PA3 can chamber 3+1 2.75" at that length. It seems that the position of the magazine tube varies somewhat by model.

They are using Mossbergs for their longer shotguns, but I'm not wedded to the idea of using them for everything. If something is clearly better, but nevertheless fairly easily available sporting goods stores in the UK to use as the basis for gunsmithing, they can buy that model. What would you recommend as the basis for a Serbu Super Shorty-like weapon with one more shell in the tube?

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

A mag tube can be WAY longer than the barrel without being an issue. You see this sometimes in gamey 3-gun shotguns.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/files/pho...gunshotgun.jpg

I'm sure it can. On the other hand, when you're cutting the barrel down to shorten the weapon for easier concealment and handling, you don't gain much if the magazine tube still sticks out and contributes to overall length.

In all cases, I was wondering about how long the barrel and magazine tube together had to be, assuming that they'd be equally long.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Every .22 LR bullet Ive ever run into has been Hollow Point, when I asked about that the answer has always been 'when you make them by the millions upon millions, the lead savings from the hollow of the hollow point adds up'

Ok, that will work. As long as they are sold in the UK. We get roundnoses here, I seem to recall.

Do you know the specific type name of the most common .22 LR you see?