British Military Combatives in the Queen's Service

[Icelander]

In a world that starts out very, very much like our own, but has started to diverge because of the emergence of secret magic*, one of the power groups that are starting to arise in response to knowledge of the new rules is connected to the British Crown.

Publicly, magic doesn't exist and any political figure stating that it does would lose his job in short order. Privately, a well-connected network with the Queen at its head has been convinced and have started to gather information and even take action in order to safeguard the interests of Queen and Country. They can't call upon official resources, but if anyone in the world has the potential to muster enough unofficial influence, wealth and favours for a secret organisation, it's the Queen**.

Edit: A Name

I need some term to refer to the organisation. The senior figures have so far avoided giving it a formal name, believing that the more informal it is, the less any enterprising reporter who heard strange rumours could confirm or ever dare print. I have an idea for an informal name, though, which might have emerged as a joke between early members.

Obviously, the first few conspirators, primarily members of the Royal Household, might have used terms like 'The Queen's Secret' or just 'The Other Household'. As soon as the dangers from the supernatural became more real, the royal bodyguards (current and former) who learned about it would have started to prepare to face such threats. Even before the establishment of what became the first quick-reaction team in 2005, there were those who saw their role as not just scholars and investigators, but defenders of the Crown, their country and the people who still didn't know about the threats. As soon as they first took an active role to kill a dangerous supernatural predator or capture one for research, I imagine that with dark humour, some of them started to speak of themselves as Her Majesty's Supernatural Game Wardens or something similar to that.

Given that junior members are not necessarily formally told that the Queen is aware of all of what they do (though all of them understand that they are serving the Crown in some way), such a term was ill-advised. Also, anything that could not be used in front of others was somewhat risky and the best term would be something that sounded innucous if someone should overhear a partial conversation. On the other hand, what little weapon and combat training that the early members did would have been on the grounds of royal residences, particularly the larger ones in Scotland, alongside the gamekeepers of the household there. Hunting is hunting and no one would bat an eye when well-born former military men with connections to the royal household were invinted for many hunts. So, Royal Gamekeepers might not be so far out. Another word for gamekeepers, of course, is Rangers. And that word has strong connotations, at least for Tolkien readers, of risking life and limb to protect an oblivious populace from dire threats.

If we postulate that one or more of the early senior people were not only Tolkien fans, but also football fans, it becomes plausible to call the quick-reaction teams, at least, Rangers. With a degree of humour (and if we imagine that one of the influential people who started the QRTs was a West London man), their full 'name' could even be Queen's Park Rangers and that name could be used in casual conversation without anyone becoming suspicious. Even if shortened to Rangers, people would simply assume that the Glasgow Rangers were what was meant.

So, 'Rangers', 'QPR' and 'Queen's Rangers' are all viable terms for the organisation.

---

The recruits are mostly high Status British subjects, with the senior recruits being people with a personal connection to the Queen. Informally, the Queen has been quietly gathering information and allies since the 80s, but with recent events, the informal organisation is becoming something else. Starting in 2000 or so, plans started to be made for a formal group of secret operatives, spies, researchers and magicians. In 2005, that group became operational.

The operatives are recruited among patriots loyal to the Royal Family in the British armed forces (overwhelmingly Old Etonians or from 'the Other Place'), Metropolitan Police officers from the Queen's security element and the intelligence services. In nearly all cases, they are brought in by personal friends already within the group, but recently, some have been approached after surviving a strange experience. It's not as covert and eventually, it will lead to the secret becoming public after a failed recruitment, but this is seen as the lesser of evils.

It is becoming clear to the senior members that the supernatural not only exists, but has existed for a long time, with waxing and waning of the impact on the mortal world. While it has remained dormant or at least irrelevant to the world almost since the Industrial Revolution***, it is now returning and is doing so at an ever increasing pace.

The Queen and her advisors now see it as likely to become a threat to human society greater than human-on-human violent crime within a single generation. They differ on how to approach that problem, but many feel that secrecy cannot possibly last and the only question is how and when the secret will come out, not if it will.

All of which was a long preamble to a rather simple question.

Given that many recruits are ex-servicemen or ex-police from the UK and that those who are not are often affiliated with elite universities (the researchers and magicians), what kind of martial arts training, armed and unarmed, is it likely that they will adopt?

If possible, they'll like to have their recruits continue civilian life for as much as they can, living cover lives as graduate students in Oxford or Cambridge, with exceptions being made only for those few who are members of their quick-response units. So they'd like to be able to enroll people in public training programs, with only those aspects specifically related to the supernatural being taught at whatever remote castle in Scotland I decide is adopted as their headquarters.

What practical martial arts are popular with British soldiers and cops? Knowing that their quick-response people might have to fight supernaturally tough creatures who cannot be killed except with melee weapon exotica like silver-bladed knives or hawthorne stakes, what real-world blade combative art would they want to encourage people to learn?

Would any current or former British intelligence, security or military people retain a useful knowledge of Defendu or FCCT? Would it be worthwhile to learn instead of simply adopting a more commercially popular martial art that incorporates knifework?

*Which is, however, extremely limited in its effects, scope and verifiability, due to most of Earth being a Very Low Mana Zone, with -8 to -10 to magic use being the most common. Magic use also generally requires knowledge of ancient rituals, languages or scripts; with such knowledge alone not being enough, but some degree of inborn talent being required as well. In addition, the expectations of any observers have an effect, with sceptical people causing an extra penalty. As a result, only a few people in the setting could perform magical feats while around sceptics, in an area they hadn't previously prepared. Doing so reliably enough to constitute proof for said sceptics would make it even harder. So far, no one powerful enough has been interested in coming out to the world at large.
**And the Pope, yes. And, indeed, there is an Equal (if not quite 'and Opposite') Conspiracy in the Vatican.
***With, possibly, a few localised or short-term intrusions of supernatural phenomena at certain time periods.

[Icelander]

No thoughts at all?

For a generic self-defence and confidence-boosting style, I had considered jujutsu. It forms the basis for many composite modern styles effective in real world conditions and fairly advanced training in it and descendant styles is widely available to civilians.

On the other hand, it does not have a particularly advanced body of knifework and given that supernatural creatures may be vulnerable to being cut or stabbed by certain materials, knifework is very important.

Right now, the most popular basis for military knife styles are probably the various FMA styles and variations thereof. I am concerned, however, that the assumptions traditionally made by escrimadors* won't hold true for supernatural foes much stronger than humans, who might throw themselves at a man with a knife confident that wounds that might cripple or endanger the lives of humans will only be a temporary inconvenience to them.

Ideally, any knife style practised by mortals who might face supernatural foes should focus on meeting rushes with deadly stabs to the heart or other high-value targets. Cuts to the limbs are worthwhile only if they can dismember and decapitation might turn out to necessary.

Where would one learn that?

*That the enemy is also a trained duellist and will tend to be careful not to overextend, and that cutting his limbs will cripple them.

[aesir23]

Well, one of the Silat styles in MA includes Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Vitals), IIRC.

But why not invent your own style, custom made for the purposes of your secret society?

It seems perfectly plausible that the Queen might hire a team of renowned martial artists with Spec Ops experience to design a combat system for those who have to face supernatural foes.

I'm pretty sure that the SAS have their own hand to hand training regimine that is probably similar (but not identical to) MCMAP, Krav Maga, and other military hand to hand styles. This book is probably a good place to start if you want to create an accurate version of it.

Personally, if someone wanted to play former SAS, I'd just give them MCMAP with the serial numbers filed off. But Jujutsu works too, it is a popular starting point for practical martial arts.

Then I'd custom build a martial art tailored to monster slaying/ghost busting/witch hunting to be taught to the PCs by a grizzled old veteran of the SAS or a Gurkha regiment of Her Majesties Army.

[Johan Larson]

Most martial arts training focuses on unarmed fighting, which doesn't sound very useful if various exotic melee weapons are required to fight the supernaturals.

Are you very keen on the idea that only knives are effective? There are certainly other melee options.

European fencing is a decent basis for actual sword-fighting, and a sword lets you keep your distance in a way that knives really don't. Kendo might work too, depending on whether you need to cut rather than thrusting.

If you want more distance than that, Naginata would be useful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata

Is armor useful against the supernaturals? Have the Crown discreetly encourage training in hoplomachia, with schools springing up in 2006 in the wake of the film "300". (Surely a coincidence, hmm?)

Or the Crown could give this guy a call:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...erhampton.html

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

... given that supernatural creatures may be vulnerable to being cut or stabbed by certain materials, knifework is very important.

FCCT has a fair amount of knife work, and was widely known; there are probably still practitioners.

Originally Posted by aesir23

... taught to the PCs by a grizzled old veteran of the SAS or a Gurkha regiment of Her Majesties Army.

Does anyone know anything about Gurkha martial arts? There's nothing in GURPS Martial Arts, and while Stealth + Knife is clearly the core, there must be more.

A minor point, but it's the British Army, not the Royal Army, Her Majesty's Army, or anything like that. Its roots as an organisation are in the Parliamentary Army of the English Civil War.

[Crakkerjakk]

It's tricky. In all honesty there's pretty much no martial art that will prepare you to go up against someone significantly stronger who can ignore most injury. I think FMA is pretty close, as at least it strongly emphasizes weapons and "trapping" of limbs by moving to areas where the opponent has difficulty applying his full strength. However, there's still the assumptions on how joints work that may or may not apply to various supernatural entities.

In my opinion, FMA is the closest you're going to get because it's the most heavily weapon-based art I know of that's still fairly close to it's roots as actual pre-firearm combat training.

Any modern military style is going to focus less on hand-to-hand fighting than something that existed before guns, with greater concentration on sentry removal stuff. And the whole "defanging the snake" bit with FMA is not really that heavily emphasized. It's in there, but it also includes a lot of quick closing and close-in knife work to vital bits in the body's core. And various supernatural critters MAY still be susceptible to pain from the touch of whatever can kill them, even if they don't take injury unless they're stabbed somewhere specific. If that's the case, a focus on weapons will pay off well, IMO. So that'd be my recommendation.

[sgtcallistan]

Your mention of people loyal to the Royal Family can be expanded upon.

When I joined the Royal Air Force (not the Army), I swore an oath, to (IIRC) 'Her majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, and the government she chooses to place under her'.

The exact wording escapes me, but most people who make such an oath mean it, and will stand by it.
It did not permit me to obey orders given against the Queen, or her heirs and successors. The rest of the Royal Family is specifically not included.
There's a division right there.
You might have lesser Royals in conflict with the immediate Family of her son Charles, his son Harry, etc. Leading to probems in who obeys.

Theoretically, if someone murdered his way up the succession until he was King, I might have had a problem...

On martial arts styles; 'unarmed combat' exists, the Fairbairn book exists, but I feel most regiments do not train in this stuff, preferring skill at arms.
Elite or specialist units do train in this, so I'd expect SAS and other elites, the Parachute Regiment, the Royal Marines to be the ones that do this.
Individual soldiers study when they have access to schools and have the time. Not very likely in my mind, as deployments to war-zones come first.

All this is based upon my limited knowledge of the army, and my experience of the RAF in the late 1970's to mid 1980's.

Hope this is useful.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by aesir23

But why not invent your own style, custom made for the purposes of your secret society?

Mostly because that would demand much more effort from the organisation, effort which would interfere with the actual process of collecting data about the supernatural. This is a relatively small conspiracy, with mostly informal resources. Yes, the Queen is superwealthy and has a network of connections that is second to none. But if she ever drew upon a significant part of her wealth to fund a monster-hunting society and/or reached out to too many contacts, it is certain that the press would eventually find out and probably think that she had gone ga-ga. And that would be Bad.

The true purpose of the organisation, at least according to the majority of the senior personnel, is to ensure that whenever the secret is finally revealed and the possibility of public organisations dealing with the supernatural is opened up, the United Kingdom (and to a lesser extent the Commonwealth nations) will have a pool of supernatural-savvy people to form a training cadre. Some of the senior recruits feel that while they are still a secret society, the risks of conducting active operations are too great.

That they do it at all is mostly because the Queen and less cautious advisors are unwilling to allow supernatural creatures to prey on people without even trying to help in any way. While the supernatural was still only a source of strangeness, a new field to study, it was still possible to argue that secrecy was of paramount importance. As more and more of the cases that this secret society* investigates (for the purposes of collecting data) turn out to endanger civilians in ways that the police is helpless to deal with, the cadre that was supposed to eventually train cops and soldiers when the secret came out started instead to take the field in certain of the worst cases.

To take an example of the kind of problem the supernatural can pose, an unethical scholar who discovers that magic works can commit crimes that baffle the police and he may also attract malignant spirits that influence him to ever greater depravity. Natural mediums may also be subject to possession by such spirits, even without intenting to dabble in anything supernatural. And in Great Britian, specifically, there are a lot of places where some kind of Otherworld appears to intrude on specific locations. As yet, traversing between in any kind of regular fashion appears to be impossible, but at specific times and places, impossible (and sometimes quite dangerous) creatures may appear briefly.

By 2010, even if most governments are unwilling to credit supernatural explanations, it has nevertheless become clear that violent crimes and apparently motiveless (and often bizarre) murders are on the rise. As in, murder rates in a cities where there is a lot of history of belief in the supernatural has doubled or more. London is becoming far more dangerous and several small towns with local centres of superstition or sites of ancient religious monuments are positively ablaze in strange criminal activity.

The problem is very large, but the organisation is still small and underfunded, even if some of the individual members are quite rich. As such, it is not quite plausible that they could set up a secret training station where hundreds of members spent months or years learning a completely new martial arts style. It would be a much more efficient use of their resources if new recruits could sign up for a normal martial arts course in their regular civilian lives and have the few trainers of hand-to-hand combat among the organisation focus on teaching potential field agents how to apply that knowledge against their specific threats.

Basically, it's the same reason as why small businesses don't run schools to train new employees, but prefer to hire people with an education in the same field and train them in using it for their specific purposes. It would probably result in more capable employees if the education was specifically focused on what the company needed, but the costs, financial and in time from the established members, are too much for it to be viable.

*Which was deliberately set up as an informal network of people in the know, without a name, a specific budget or ranks. As it evolves into a less ad-hoc entity, I'm sure that members will start to refer to it with a common name. I just haven't decided what that would be. Suggestions?

Originally Posted by aesir23

It seems perfectly plausible that the Queen might hire a team of renowned martial artists with Spec Ops experience to design a combat system for those who have to face supernatural foes.

[...]

Then I'd custom build a martial art tailored to monster slaying/ghost busting/witch hunting to be taught to the PCs by a grizzled old veteran of the SAS or a Gurkha regiment of Her Majesties Army.

I imagine that as the quick-response teams mature, they will organically develop their own version of whatever martial art they started with. But as long as the organisation is still secret, it has to be something where the basics are available from civilian instructors who are not initiated into the Secret.

I did consider the Gurkhas. The kukri is a fine weapon for cutting off heads, for one. And a solid kukri might be able to disable or dismember limbs in a way that a combat knife usually can't, which is important in case of a regenerating critter or someone who doesn't feel the pain of a possessed body.

My problem is that I've found no evidence that Gurkhas regularly learn any form of martial art. The society many of them are recruited from is one where everyone carries a knife, yes, but mostly they seem to learn the same soldierly skills as any other British soldier. And I can't find evidence that the British had formalised military instruction in hand-to-hand before 2009, when they started to build on the foundation of US combatives (even hiring Larsen as a consultant).

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by johndallman

[URL="http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-1641"]
Does anyone know anything about Gurkha martial arts? There's nothing in GURPS Martial Arts, and while Stealth + Knife is clearly the core, there must be more.

Originally Posted by Icelander

I did consider the Gurkhas. The kukri is a fine weapon for cutting off heads, for one. And a solid kukri might be able to disable or dismember limbs in a way that a combat knife usually can't, which is important in case of a regenerating critter or someone who doesn't feel the pain of a possessed body.

My problem is that I've found no evidence that Gurkhas regularly learn any form of martial art. The society many of them are recruited from is one where everyone carries a knife, yes, but mostly they seem to learn the same soldierly skills as any other British soldier. And I can't find evidence that the British had formalised military instruction in hand-to-hand before 2009, when they started to build on the foundation of US combatives (even hiring Larsen as a consultant).

It's true, there is no formal, named style associated with the Gurkhas (although the Nepal Army does apparently include Tae Kwon Do training).

However, I believe that many Gurkha do practice fighting with their kukris, and many do end up with practical close combat experience.

I certainly wouldn't scoff at the idea of a Gurkha PC or NPC with something like Dagger Fighting on their character sheet, nor at the idea that such a person (like the man who took out 40 armed thugs on a train with his kukri) may be recruited to teach close combat to a group of secret monster hunters.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Johan Larson

Most martial arts training focuses on unarmed fighting, which doesn't sound very useful if various exotic melee weapons are required to fight the supernaturals.

True and the reason why I'm looking for a style that isn't just 'karate or judo' (possibly with a different name). I do think that teaching unarmed combat is useful, even to recruits that are not likely to use it much, in that it instills confidence and is a good way to maintain a reasonable standard of physical health within the organisation. Encouraging even the young academics that they recruit to go to a dojo several times a week in case they ever need to defend themselves against a hostile magic-user or people possessed by evil spirits seems fair enough.

The most common supernatural threat is probably a normal person without any training or super-powers, but influenced or controlled by a malignant spirit. As the spirit doesn't care about the fleshy shell, the body may operate at levels of exertion that would be near-certain to lead to injury for a normal person and severe pain, shock and even soft-tissue injury that would be crippling to a normal human may not stop them in the short term. In the long term, they cripple and die like any other human, but that doesn't help someone they managed to finish strangling before they died.

The ideal solution to such a possession is to secure the person with restraints that prevent the spirit from struggling in a way that permanently damages the victim*. For that purpose, it's very useful for the quick-response teams to be in good physical condition and to have training in police arrest techniques. The ex-cops among them already know how, but to maintain proficiency, as well as teaching those who come without such experience to arrest people, it's probably useful to train in some form of martial art which includes grappling.

*Sprains, torn muscles and damage to joint ligaments is unfortunately almost unescapable.

Originally Posted by Johan Larson

Are you very keen on the idea that only knives are effective? There are certainly other melee options.

European fencing is a decent basis for actual sword-fighting, and a sword lets you keep your distance in a way that knives really don't. Kendo might work too, depending on whether you need to cut rather than thrusting.

If you want more distance than that, Naginata would be useful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata

The major reason for a focus on knifework is that it's possible to conceal knives. Swords and polearms might be useful in certain cases, but while still a secret organisation, members of the conspiracy are often forced to walk around with maybe a pistol and a knife, not a machine gun and a polearm.

As a matter of fact, except for the quick-reaction teams*, most conspiracy members go unarmed. Even the former military people only carry weapons if they are still licensed to do so and then, usually only a pistol and only on dangerous asssignments.

The quick-reaction people have access to military hardware, but are usually constrained by the need to remain covert. Suppressed pistols and SMGs, the occasional military carbine and a knife or two.

The current method accepted for dealing with a true supernatural threat, i.e. not just a possessed victim, is to shoot it until it is down and then move on to metaphysical stuff, specific to different kinds. If the weakness of the creature is known, then that substance is introduced into its body somehow. If the creature is clearly supernatural, but it's not clear what type, the usual SOP is to cut off its head (sometimes with a silver- or gold-coated knife) and stab it in the heart (sometimes with a knife, sometimes a hawthorne stake). Then the body is restrained, ash and salt is spread over it, and it is bagged for research.

*Which in 2010 had less than ten full-time members, with maybe thirty available some of the time.

Originally Posted by Johan Larson

Is armor useful against the supernaturals? Have the Crown discreetly encourage training in hoplomachia, with schools springing up in 2006 in the wake of the film "300". (Surely a coincidence, hmm?)

Armour is useful, but in general, modern ballistics weave and stab vests are far more concealable and easier to explain than reproductions of ancient or historical armour. Some recruits are still members of the police, security services, intelligence or military, acting as sort of sleeper agents, and when out on call, the operatives are generally covered as consultants for some governmental agency, on a training exercise.

Originally Posted by Johan Larson

Or the Crown could give this guy a call:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...erhampton.html

I read that just last week. On the other hand, there is no reason to believe that this style is any more useful than other weapon-based styles in the modern world (most of which teach Art versions of skills). Not to mention that the Queen is not encouraged to try to recruit anyone if there is the slightest possibility that they'll go the press (or even tell someone else who then goes to the press). She mostly approached people she had known for decades, her personal bodyguards, her physician and other people in her household on whose loyalties she could rely upon absolutely and whom she knew well enough to judge that they would believe her fantastical claims. These then recruited a few people each, if they happened to know people who could contribute something in terms of skills and would not be too sceptical to believe at all.*

*At the beginning, recruits had to take the existence of the supernatural on faith. The Queen, in setting, is a natural medium who also has prophetic dreams. But other evidence of the supernatural was thin on the ground in the 80s and even during the early 90s, there still weren't any actual monsters or magic users, just spirits that could be sensed by very rare people.