Breadth of Non-Combat Techniques (social and other)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by whswhs

In terms of the way seduction is structured in SE—make an initial reaction or Influence roll to invite the person to go somewhere private with you, then make a Sex Appeal roll to get them into bed (since Sex Appeal can produce a Very Good reaction; the Good reactions from other skills aren't sufficient—though you can just ask and hope for a good reaction)—I'm going to say that what you're talking about might be a core use of the skill.

While no doubt an extremely important use of the skill to many real-world people, I don't actually think it's that central to the use of the Sex Appeal skill in an adventuring context.

Consider that this would not apply to an attempt to distract guards with a flash of bare flesh and a saucy grin, it would not cover supporting use of the Sex Appeal skill as a professional dancer or lounge singer or some other form of entertainment, and perhaps most importantly, it would not apply to an attempt to convince an NPC already sexually interested in your character of doing you some favour in exchange for the possibility of sex, which I would consider the core use of Sex Appeal.

A Technique useful for convincing people to sleep with one is only worthwhile if one's principal goal with social interaction in the specific case is the sexual encounter itself. Which, while an important goal for many real people, has limited value in game terms.

Originally Posted by whswhs

I'd also say that since "reluctant" is probably mechanically similar to Resistant or Immune, I wouldn't allow a technique to negate that. Of course, if they have +8 to resist, you could raise your Sex Appeal by eight levels to compensate. But I'd be inclined to suggest looking for more indirect strategies. See, for example, the Manipulation rules.

I don't think the idea was that the Technique should negage the bonus to resist, merely that it would be possible to raise this aspect of the Sex Appeal skill independently of others. With which I think I agree, in that I don't see that there would be any balance or realism problems with allowing skill+4 in a Technique that covers sexually propositioning people.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Icelander

While no doubt an extremely important use of the skill to many real-world people, I don't actually think it's that central to the use of the Sex Appeal skill in an adventuring context.

I don't think that's the test, though. It seems to me that Sex Appeal is the skill of projecting sexual interest/availability in such a way as to interest and arouse another person. Doing that in a context of actual sexual activity seems to be a primary use of that skill, in the same way that hitting someone with your hand is a primary use of Karate. How often you'd do that in a campaign is a function partly of what kind of campaign you run and partly of what your "audience" will accept. But if, for example, no one ever wanted to see an actual fight take place in play, and fights always took place offstage, with combat skills being used to threaten and persuade people—that wouldn't affect the logic of hand blows being the primary function of Karate skill.

Bill Stoddard

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't think that's the test, though. It seems to me that Sex Appeal is the skill of projecting sexual interest/availability in such a way as to interest and arouse another person. Doing that in a context of actual sexual activity seems to be a primary use of that skill, in the same way that hitting someone with your hand is a primary use of Karate. How often you'd do that in a campaign is a function partly of what kind of campaign you run and partly of what your "audience" will accept. But if, for example, no one ever wanted to see an actual fight take place in play, and fights always took place offstage, with combat skills being used to threaten and persuade people—that wouldn't affect the logic of hand blows being the primary function of Karate skill.

Well, no. But the core use of Sex Appeal skill is to convince others to respond positively to a request for aid, information, etc. Convincing them to engage in sexual congress is merely one of the manifold favours that Sex Appeal could be used to elicit and I don't think it's the most central to the skill as it is presented.

Remember, it wouldn't apply in all cases when sexual intercourse took place before, during or after a Sex Appeal roll. It only applies to that narrow narrow sub-set of Sex Appeal rolls which are made in order to convince another party to engage in sexual congress. As opposed to, for example, cases where the social interaction occuring during a sexual encounter is used to Influence the other party in some way.

When the other party is searching for a sexual partner and you fit the criterion, no roll is needed. In general, people may get along fine and have sexual intercourse on at least a semi-regular basis with Sex Appeal skill. That skill is the art of using sex or the promise of it to influence the behaviour of others in your favour. That's the core use of the skill.

But Sex Appeal can also be used, of course, simply to 'score', without seeking any other advantage or favour from the other party. This would be a narrow subset of the uses to which the skill can be put, a specific form of request for a favour, and that's absolutely something a Technique could affect.

I imagine that the poster who brought up the Technique linked it with convincing reluctant people to have sexual relations, because that's a case where there is occasion to roll a skill, despite there being no request for aid or information. People who aren't reluctant to have sexual relations might well have them with an attractive character using Sex Appeal even if they win the QC against it, because that simply represents them not being manipulated into whatever the character was trying to convince them of, not being uninterested in sampling his charms.

Besides, why does the fact that a given Technique might represent exactly what many people want from a skill mean that it's not a valid Technique? For a cinematographer, the core use of his Photography skill is certainly covered by his Motion-Picture Camera Technique. That doesn't mean that he can't improve it.

In my opinion, at least, few if any GURPS skills are as narrowly defined as the various combat skills. Identifying just one core use of non-combat skills is not always going to be possible and even when it is, it will tend to be setting- and character-dependant, not a universal constant of the skill.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In my opinion, at least, few if any GURPS skills are as narrowly defined as the various combat skills. Identifying just one core use of non-combat skills is not always going to be possible and even when it is, it will tend to be setting- and character-dependant, not a universal constant of the skill.

But I'm not arguing that it's the only core use. I'm saying that it looks to me like a core use. Saying that it's not really seems to me to be getting into Murphy territory.

Bill Stoddard

[vicky_molokh]

IMO, Seduction is not like 'punching', but rather like Feinting, or Kicking, or Punching To The Neck. A major use, but still very narrow compared to the whole skills.

[Lamech]

Also note seduction can be done with a lot of skills. Diplo, fast-talk, and so forth...

[Fwibos]

[QUOTE=vicky_molokh;1489227]At first I thought it's reasonably narrow, but then I realised that a similar Technique based on Merchant would step too much on the Core Use. So I'm careful about that one.

Seems safe to me. It may or may not be too narrow.

Originally Posted by Jonathan Willis

Seems OK to me.

Since it seems to circumvent a trait that normally makes success impossible at all, I'd be very strict with this one. Notably: it may only be used after you find out about the issue (either by failing the first roll, or by trying to figure it out in advance with Psychology and stuff, or by being told for some reason); and, the base penalty should equal to the absolute point value of traits that act as stoppers. Thus -10 against a Vow [-5] and a Higher Purpose [5] if both are stoppers.

All of those sound like perks to me, not Techniques.

[David Johnston2]

The thought occurs to me that one Sex Appeal technique would be the art of messing with rolls just by making people who aren't interested uncomfortable.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The thought occurs to me that one Sex Appeal technique would be the art of messing with rolls just by making people who aren't interested uncomfortable.

Sounds like a non-combat variant of Sexy Feints.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The thought occurs to me that one Sex Appeal technique would be the art of messing with rolls just by making people who aren't interested uncomfortable.

Yes, certainly. You could mechanic that as a manipulation roll giving a bonus to Intimidation.

Bill Stoddard