'Imperial Culture' (non-canonista)

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

I have similar, but only for nobles who have been officers of the imperial services. (Remembering that there is no Imperial Army.)

No Army, eh?

IMTU:

The Imperial Army: based on Capital, but recruited from many worlds. The old military saying is that '' the Navy is the Emperor's broom, and the Army is his mop.'' The Army certainly did a lot of 'mopping up' in the Pacification Wars, and more recently on occupied worlds after the last round of Frontier Wars.
Occupation and suppression of rebellion are two of the main functions of the IA.

The IA is frequently supplemented with local auxilluaries.

IA detachments may be placed at the disposal of Imperial nobles.

Many very wealthy nobles, especially those who rule sectors, maintain household forces.

Planetary defense forces serve the member world governments. These forces run the gamut from 'medieval' gear to the most up-to-date equipment, and from gangs of armed thugs to highly trained professionals.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

No Army, eh?

The canon evidence is contradictory. Personally, I think that if there wasn't an Imperial Army, someone would have invented one, in the sense that the Army of the Domain of Sylea (assuming something like that existed) or the Army of the Duchy of Core or the Army of Sylea would have been tasked with Imperium-wide coordination of army activities, in much the same way as historically the British Horse Guards by default grew to perform the functions of a non-existing 'Generalty' (army counterpart to the Admiralty).

But discussing that in further details is, of course, inappropriate for this thread, as it would involve reprehensible canonista behavior. ;-)


Hans

[jason taylor]

As I remember canon says that the Imperial Armies are swear to the nobility(presumably meaning the subsector dukes) and the Navy and Marines to the Emperor. The hidden meaning is that in the event of a civil war any given duke would require several planetary invasions but all the mobile forces are in the Emperors command, and if a noble wishes to build a private empire he must follow the rules of the Imperium(gathering his empire by mercantile competition, marrying, and groveling) or he must perforce raise his own navy which is a bit of a bother. This seems to be a deliberately arranged balance of power.

[jason taylor]

IMTU: Imperial army line troops pledge to subsector dukes. Or at least have no bureaucratic status above the subsector(I am guessing the second is more likely but Hans will clarify). Exceptions include the Imperial Guard and the Marshalate(Emperors personal military staff) both of which pledge directly to the Emperor.

The Imperial Armies has a colorful "anthropological garden" air to it comparable to the Anglo-Indian or Habsburg armies. Regiments are named after the planets where their depot is based on even if some regiments accept recruits from other planets. However they are organic to the Imperial bureaucracy.

This is their difference from the Planetary forces which are raised by the individual planets. I remember an argument with a fellow on the internet who was confused about that. It IS a bit hard for someone who grew up on Ivanhoe to realize how the traditional format of nested governments and mafia-like patronage webs can confuse someone who is familiar only with modern government.


The Imperial Armies could be compared to the Raj army and the Planetary armies with the Independant Princes.

I am not saying that the Imperium IS the British Empire Recycled In Space(I remember talking about this before to Combat). It would be to Hatty if there weren't a lot of differences. What I am saying is that the are are enough similarities to draw comparisons and that some of the similarities are deliberate shout outs(much as many European and American institutions are shout-outs to Greece and Rome for the sake of ceremony or just because someone thought ancients had a good idea going here or there).

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

IMTU: Imperial army line troops pledge to subsector dukes. Or at least have no bureaucratic status above the subsector(I am guessing the second is more likely but Hans will clarify).

How can I clarify anything about your TU?!? ;-)

For the OTU, 99% of what we know about Imperial ground forces is from GT:Ground Forces. GF does state quite clearly that there is no such thing as the Imperial Army. Wil says there's a statement to the same effect in COACC, but I can't find it, so I can't vouch for that. I do know of one CT statement that says that the Imperial Army is on a par with the IN and the Scouts (Well, actually, it says that the Scouts are on a par with the IN and the IA, but I submit that it comes to the same thing).


Hans

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

How can I clarify anything about your TU?!? ;-)

For the OTU, 99% of what we know about Imperial ground forces is from GT:Ground Forces. GF does state quite clearly that there is no such thing as the Imperial Army. Wil says there's a statement to the same effect in COACC, but I can't find it, so I can't vouch for that. I do know of one CT statement that says that the Imperial Army is on a par with the IN and the Scouts (Well, actually, it says that the Scouts are on a par with the IN and the IA, but I submit that it comes to the same thing).


Hans

I was asking for a clarification of OTU to compare. Sorry my thoughts ran away with me.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

The canon evidence is contradictory. Personally, I think that if there wasn't an Imperial Army, someone would have invented one, in the sense that the Army of the Domain of Sylea (assuming something like that existed) or the Army of the Duchy of Core or the Army of Sylea would have been tasked with Imperium-wide coordination of army activities, in much the same way as historically the British Horse Guards by default grew to perform the functions of a non-existing 'Generalty' (army counterpart to the Admiralty).
s

Couldn't the marines do that? Functionally the Imperium is different from modern day militaries in that there is generally no way to attack with a military without using naval forces. The Imperium has no land borders to attack across. Therefore there's a certain logic to the idea that while planets have armies as part of their defensive forces, the senior service is the navy, and the imperial ground forces are the marines, period, with the various local armies being primarily garrison and defensive forces under marine leadership when they called up.

(Interestingly in the Foundation series, the Empire didn't _have_ a navy. The spaceships were run by the Imperial Army, led by a general, not an admiral.)

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Couldn't the marines do that? Functionally the Imperium is different from modern day militaries in that there is generally no way to attack with a military without using naval forces. The Imperium has no land borders to attack across. Therefore there's a certain logic to the idea that while planets have armies as part of their defensive forces, the senior service is the navy, and the imperial ground forces are the marines, period, with the various local armies being primarily garrison and defensive forces under marine leadership when they called up.

(Interestingly in the Foundation series, the Empire didn't _have_ a navy. The spaceships were run by the Imperial Army, led by a general, not an admiral.)

IMTU the armies would, I think, have most of the heavy ground hardware, and certainly most of the cannon fodder. They are there to take and hold ground. Marines are there to take and hold planetheads until the army arrives and the army would theoretically conduct the extended campaign. Think of the navy as the panzers, the marines as the panzergrenaiders and the army as the poor landsers.

Also I deem that Balkanization is in fact more common then SM makes out and that worlds which are credited to one government often have a constant rebellion going on. This allows Zho and Imperial forces to have regular bar-brawls without a planetary invasion because they are already on the same planet when war breaks out. Not that there is anything wrong with planetary invasions; this is just an interesting complexity, and also one most sci-fis never get around to. You seldom have a space war that starts with both empires having a presence on the same planet.

[ak_aramis]

Hans, the relevant text is the chapter head text on page 10 of COACC. I was originally lead to it by Doug Berry (of GTGF authorship).

"Virtually all armed forces within the Imperium are organized along the same lines. Thus, the armed forces within a star system will include ground command, nautical command (if any oceans are present), and air command. In some cases, those commands will answer directly to the Imperial military hierarchy; in other cases, the commands will answer to local Imperial nobility (for example, the duke of a sector who is in charge of military operations in support of the Imperium).
"Most armed forces, however, are associated with worlds. That is, each world organizes and supports its own armed forces. As such, a world army has its own ground command, nautical command, and air command. Many present and former member worlds of the Imperium maintained their own planetary armies as well. Balkanized worlds commonly have one army per nation to either further national ambitions or to deter other nations from becoming too ambitious."

Noting the words "Imperial Military Hierarchy" is not the same as "Imperial Army Hierarchy"... And units answering directly to a noble have a specific term for them: Huscarles. Which means the remainder are probably attached to the Navy or Scouts directly...

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Couldn't the marines do that? Functionally the Imperium is different from modern day militaries in that there is generally no way to attack with a military without using naval forces. The Imperium has no land borders to attack across. Therefore there's a certain logic to the idea that while planets have armies as part of their defensive forces, the senior service is the navy, and the imperial ground forces are the marines, period, with the various local armies being primarily garrison and defensive forces under marine leadership when they called up.

(Interestingly in the Foundation series, the Empire didn't _have_ a navy. The spaceships were run by the Imperial Army, led by a general, not an admiral.)

If I were to work up a Traveller setting not based on the OTU, I'd probably follow Foundation by having the the space forces of 'The Empire' be part of the Army.

I also like Heinlein's Fleet/Mobile Infantry set-up from starship troopers.