[DF][GM Advice] Heart Attacks

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

I'd allow Stop Bleeding to stabilize you as if a heart attack was a Mortal Wound. Which it is. That's 10 energy to cast. First Aid wouldn't be enough.

That's cool. Never considered that spell.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

This was my first thought as well. I'd also allow an Esoteric Medicine roll, though probably at a penalty of -4 or so, to encourage Clerics to invest in the spell instead of relying on the skill.

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

I'm fine with a penalized Esoteric Medicine roll, too. I'd probably go -5 or higher, because it should be hard to stop it without magic, and bonuses from kits, etc. aren't uncommon.

Ah, yes. An Esoteric Medicine roll would be a very nice solution. The Basic Set (p. B192) advises: "It should always be at least as good as First Aid."

So, right there, a lenient GM could allow a Esoteric Medicine -4 roll in place of a First Aid/TL7 -4 roll.

Originally Posted by Kromm

See also the Resuscitate spell here. And in the interest of honesty, my latest (nameless) writing project is going to change that some in its "official" form.

Awesome! Can't wait to see what you're writing. Will this also include the Annihilate spell? That thing looks scary!

Thanks, all!


We're seeking to play on Roll20.net tomorrow if anyone is interested: https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/10...6#post-1037580

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I wouldn't have a big problem with allowing it, but I'd note that technically, Heart Attack is a Mortal Condition rather than a Mortal Wound.

I'm pretty sure the victim won't care a few failed HT rolls later. Restoration makes sense, too - you won't die but your out of action for a month. Instant fixes that. Both are ridiculously expensive on your SM+1 barbarian buddy who rolled that 17 on his resistance roll.

I tend to be generous with healing magic, though. It's magic, and DF isn't gritty, it's heroic. Magic fixes stuff in DF, generally, and powerful healing magic is pretty prevalent.

[Bruno]

Let's look at the "How do we fix it with magic?" question from a few other angles:
The Healing advantage (part of the Holy Might power and can be had from Divine Favor)
Divine Favor generic prayer "SAVE HIM!"
Alchemy (Our group considers the Artificer to be a pretty significant healer/support template)

The Healing advantage already has rules for curing afflictions, care of Powers and the Cure Afflictions enhancement. I'd totally allow a Power Stunt to get the enhancement temporarily in an emergency, which works nicely for a crisis attempt to cure someone.

You could use the point value of Healing + Faith Healing + Cure Afflictions to judge what degree of miracle you're asking for with a straight up Divine Favor prayer.

Alchemy's the trickier one...

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Alchemy (Our group considers the Artificer to be a pretty significant healer/support template)

I think anyone who thinks the Artificer is underpowered should have to deal with one with an alchemical backpack, a bunch of gizmos, and a high Alchemy skill. The only limiting factors I can see on our Artificer is that there isn't always an elixir that does the thing he wants. But he's whipped up, fast-drew, and then used some amazing potions in all of one second.

It's a great template, so far. I may have to challenge him with Affliction (Heart Attack) and see what he comes up with. :)

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Stripe

Awesome! Can't wait to see what you're writing. Will this also include the Annihilate spell? That thing looks scary!

The "official" version of Annihilation is in fact already published in GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles!

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

I tend to be generous with healing magic, though. It's magic, and DF isn't gritty, it's heroic. Magic fixes stuff in DF, generally, and powerful healing magic is pretty prevalent.

I heartily endorse that approach. There are genres where wounds are supposed to really matter, and even where it's bad form to allow magical healing at all, but hack 'n' slash fantasy isn't one of them. There, the party should be able to mount a full recovery between battles most of the time. Depleted healing resources – stacking up lots of -3s to Major Healing, using up all the one-a-day Great Healings, blowing through the artificer's Gizmos for healing elixirs and the scholar's Wild Talent uses of healing spells, etc. – ought to be a specific, planned challenge that occurs once in a rare while.

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

I think anyone who thinks the Artificer is underpowered should have to deal with one with an alchemical backpack, a bunch of gizmos, and a high Alchemy skill. The only limiting factors I can see on our Artificer is that there isn't always an elixir that does the thing he wants. But he's whipped up, fast-drew, and then used some amazing potions in all of one second.

The PC whose abilities inspired the template actually needed more controls on his abilities than the Weapon Master with six attacks per turn. Granted, I was very liberal about what he could create – "If there's a spell that does it, I'll let you try to Gizmo an elixir of it!" – but even so, it's an underrated abilities set.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Depleted healing resources – stacking up lots of -3s to Major Healing, using up all the one-a-day Great Healings, blowing through the artificer's Gizmos for healing elixirs and the scholar's Wild Talent uses of healing spells, etc. – ought to be a specific, planned challenge that occurs once in a rare while.

In my game, we call that rare while "Sunday afternoon." It pretty much happens all the time - but I deliberate run a game with a high potential lethality and lots of encounters. The really encourages diversity of healing abilities, because they are always going to be taxed.

I much prefer that to full recovery between fights. I don't like to essentially reward folks who aim for a one-fight-then-I-rest approach. In my campaign, you'd better be ready for round 2, because things show up after you finish the first fight. You can get rest, but you can't rely on it always (or mostly) being easy.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

In my game, we call that rare while "Sunday afternoon." It pretty much happens all the time - but I deliberate run a game with a high potential lethality and lots of encounters. The really encourages diversity of healing abilities, because they are always going to be taxed.

Yeah in the last game session of my occasional DF game they used two Healing Gems, 4 potions of Minor Healing, 1 potion of Major Healing, and two Charged Universal Scrolls of Major Healing, on a random encounter. Game Master Cole is tough but fair!

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

American Civil War historians note that Robert E. Lee had a physical "spell" during the maneuvers near the North Anna River in the summer of 1864. Lee had conceived a battle plan that had an excellent chance of doing serious hurt to the Army of the Potomac. Basically Lee suckered the Union into getting one-third of the army trapped on the wrong side of an unfordable river in the immediate presence of the whole Army of Northern Virginia. Brilliant.

Lee, however, was struck down by a disability and his temporary successor as AONV commander didn't act when the chance was available. Grant and Meade spotted the trap and got their guys out of the kill box before there was any serious shooting.

Modern reviews of Lee's medical records of that time indicate strongly that Lee had suffered a heart attack. Rest for some days enabled Lee to get back in the game. However, they also assume that Lee's attack did damage to his heart, serving to lead to an early death at 63. (That's not too early for the nineteenth century, of course; but Lee was in athletic condition and should have, IMHO, lived longer.)

So it's possible to survive a heart attack without modern medical help -- but you pay a price down the road.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

So it's possible to survive a heart attack without modern medical help -- but you pay a price down the road.

It's possible to make the HT roll to resist the affliction or spell that gives you the heart attack in the first place. Lee probably didn't get his from an affliction or spell, however. Really there isn't a GURPS rule for just having a natural cardiac arrest, except as a result of a Critical Failure on the Will Roll for operating at negative fatigue. In which case you get a HT roll and only suffer a heart attack on a failure. Whatever the cause of Lee's attack, it's easy to say that he made the HT roll in GURPS terms as an explanation for his survival.

So I'm not really sure what you are saying here. You think that Dungeon Fantasy games (which is what this thread is about) need rules for randomly inflicted heart attacks? I'm not even sure I'd even want to come up with rules for this in the grittiest of games, as the odds of it happening at any time are very low (much much lower than the 0.5% that is the minimum for a single roll on 3d). It certainly isn't appropriate for DF.

Or are you just saying that you ought to get a HT roll to resist a heart attack? This is already the case in every instance I can think of. Where in GURPS do you see that you can have a heart attack without a roll?

[Bramble Thorn]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Or are you just saying that you ought to get a HT roll to resist a heart attack? This is already the case in every instance I can think of. Where in GURPS do you see that you can have a heart attack without a roll?

I am thinking he is saying from the aftereffects Lee had a Heart Attack, That stabilized on it's own without medical attention. Which can also happen on real live; someone goes to the doctor after the fact, and the doctor diagnoses him as having had a heart attack.

But there is no way in GURPS for your body to stabilize an in-process Heart Attack, (which is NOT the same as not having a Heart Attack in the first place due to aftereffects)

And implying you should be allowed a stamina roll DURING a Heart Attack to self stabilize (either critical success or success by 10 or whatever.)