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Old 07-28-2013, 10:35 PM   #81
Otaku
 
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Default Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc.

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
We had a thread on this topic a while back, where I mentioned the food thing.
I'll try to get caught up and at least skim that thread (if not read it outright). Most of the ideas you just gave have me ask "So what is everyone else doing?" There is a lot you can do with magic in these settings and the right spells.

There is also a lot others can do. That is where there is the difference of opinion; I think that while change can justifiably occur (and eventually will), I don't expect it to happen easily, and I expect many of the "good" changes will be balanced out by the "bad". Every village probably needs its own mage, because without it what magical protection do they have?

Supply lines for armies become different, but do they disappear? At the very least the default setting will have no and low mana zones, where you'll need to supply the army from outside. Some of these ideas are also only obvious to us in the modern world... would they be to the medieval mind? I also want to see the full infrastructure to take advantage of these ideas (and probably run the numbers myself).

Again, I am not saying these changes can't be justified... just that so can the status quo. Well, that and a bit earlier I was discussing that I thought ceremonial magic was reasonably balanced.
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Old 07-28-2013, 10:51 PM   #82
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Default Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc.

Looking at this post, it seems the numbers I used in that other post might have been wrong. It's been so long since that thread that I barely remember what I said in it (I was seriously ill for the months following it, which didn't help).


The biggest problem with the magic spells--and I've always contended that this is the case--is that there are so many of them, with such far reaching effects. Every individual spell compounds on all the others, making it exponentially more difficult to figure out what the effects are.

If all we had was Bless Plants, it would be difficult to figure out what the resulting world looks like. But we also have Measurement, Find Direction, Tell Position, Test Load, Aura, Beast Summoning, Strike Barren, Bless, Resurrection, Inspired Creation, Mind Search, Communication, Sense Life, Youth, Mass Zombie, Copy, Create Portal, Distill, Enchant, and so much more.

There's seemingly a spell in there to duplicate every piece of technology we have in the modern world, plus every piece of technology envisioned in science fiction. Even if we ignore the absurd, such as time travel, we're still going to go mad trying to figure out what the world looks like when they have all these spells available.

We could write whole stories about how a medieval world would change with the introduction of any one of those world-altering spells.

It's almost paradoxical how much effort it takes to use Magic, when it's intended to be easy to drop into a world. There are lots of personal-scale spells that don't have any effect at all on the world, such as Fireball, but then there's other stuff that smashes the world if you have even one or two guys with access to them, and then there are others that are fine alone, but aren't fine when industrialized by even a handful of wizards (like Bless Plants). There's no guidance to be found anywhere on this.
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Old 07-28-2013, 10:59 PM   #83
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Default Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc.

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Lexington: I am sorry this is so long - I am not trying to bury you in words but legitimately respond. Still, again I am sorry I wasn't able to keep this to a sane length.
Don't worry, I enjoy the discussion.

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...which is why I am assuming the hedgewizard casting useful spells to help out against the mundane issues is a "thing", or rather can simply be SOP in a setting while producing the results we are used to seeing in such fantasy fare. If someone wants to use it to justify an abundant food source, they can, but as we are talking a medieval society, this exact effects of the extra food is uncertain. Given the lack of infrastructure to do anything overly significant with the surplus, I'd just assume a "better" medieval standard of living, but still a medieval standard.
I agree that the effect of the increase is debatable but magic as presented in GURPS: Magic would produce both more food and provide better access to food. There's really no escaping this.

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I am not a farmer, but my father is and I grew up on a farm. I don't claim to be an expert, but it sounds like you are less informed on this than me. Even now farmers still must deal with organisms eating their crops... and it was even more difficult in medieval times. Remember, farmers were poor, usually working for the lord of the manor or something similar. Their own land (if they had any) might be just a few acres; you noticed even some smaller pests.
I'll admit, I'm not a farmer but I have to think that if these problems could magically be cured (say, by magic) the job would be significantly easier. If I were the lord of a manor I would invest in setting up either ceremonial castings or buying a powerstone for a hedge wizard operating in the area.

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So you've got really small things like insects, fungus, weeds, etc. to deal with (be very careful when using Bless Plant, since my understanding is it actually is affecting the area of the field - don't need a bumper crop of weeds). You've got rare but devastating things like a swarm of locusts. You got to deal with small herbivores like rabbits, medium sized ones like deers, and in some areas, large ones... like elephants. Plus all of those herbivores can come in multiples. Yes, elephants really are a challenge for those growing crops near them! Also, well fed herbivores tend to attract hungry carnivores.
Okay now imagine that you still have all the problems buuuut... you grow twice as much food because of magic. I feel like that would result in more food. Problems that existing in reality are mitigated by magic, that's all. Farmers deal with this in reality, they'll deal with it in a fantasy world except that they'll be growing more food.

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Now... this is before considering the impact of magic on the ecosystem. Anger a wandering mage? You risk him using whatever spells he knows to retaliate. If he's got a large enough family (who says he has to be single, especially if mages are an important part of the economy) and your field might be withered... or burned... or flooded... or moved to what was once unfarmable land belonging to your neighbor!

Magical lands tend to have magical wildlife - you may not have to deal with an elephant, but that might be better than the alternatives... that then attract the dragons because said alternatives are so well fed after eating your fields.
I don't think such a world would have farms anymore since being outside of a castle sounds like suicide. At this point we are far outside the assumptions of a standard fantasy setting. Even Xanth doesn't present you with a significant risk that your entire family line will be wiped out while you're out to buy a new rake. If these events are rare then they're not a factor that will hugely change the supply of food.

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Can the farmer eat the crops the army eats? No? Sounds like it is being "destroyed" as far as the farmer is concerned. If it was the soldiers of his own king, if he is lucky that will just count as what is owed the crown... but not always. If they are invaders, then yeah the enemy eating the crops is destroying the crops.
Yes but the issue I was responding to was people deliberately trying to prevent crops from growing in the first place. Armies eating it rather than burning is why there's no reason for such sabotage, and as far as I know it was rare. Food is useful, people only waste it out of stupidity or rage. I would be very surprised by a setting where malicious wizards constantly trying to ruin crops was a problem.

If you live in the area you want to eat the food.
If you want to control the area you have an army to feed.

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I am assuming the farmers are not the hedgewizards, and yes people were strung up for witchcraft. I don't think magic being real would make that less likely (considering the people at the time thought it was real). So yeah, when the hedgewizard you know can work magic to help your yield accidentally curses your crops... he's in trouble.
An actual wizard would be much more like a farmer in social standing than a person with no powers who every picks on. You're trying to wedge existing stereotypes into a world where they make no sense.

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When he does his job but it wasn't enough to ward of catastrophe... historically people like scapegoats.
This applies equally well to every profession. Sometimes doctors mess up and people die but doctors stayed in business despite the apparent risk of torch wielding mobs.

Last edited by lexington; 07-28-2013 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 07-28-2013, 11:36 PM   #84
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Default Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc.

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Solving world hunger is a peacetime activity. Medieval armies didn't destroy crops either, as far as I know, they usually just ate them.
Commonly they did, actually. Not by way of deliberate vandalism so much as just the effect of a few thousand people, horses, oxen, wagons, etc tromping across the fields.
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:53 AM   #85
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Default Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc.

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Don't worry, I enjoy the discussion.
That's good; I struggle with making short, to the point posts and instead tend to try to explain things in great deal, as well as set-up counter arguments ahead of time. I am trying to find the happy medium between extremes.

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I agree that the effect of the increase is debatable but magic as presented in GURPS: Magic would produce both more food and provide better access to food. There's really no escaping this.
Here is where you have yet to convince me. Let's start with some foundational information. A warning - I am working with GURPS Magic from Third Edition. know some of 4th Edition, but I haven't read the Magic book for it. So while I understand things like Magery 0, I might have an outdated version of a Spell for reference, or have missed where Prerequisite rules have changed.

When I think of a hegdewizard, I think of a 25-75 point average-to-above-average person, who probably learned his or her spells from the previous hedgewizard, and if it is in a medieval European culture, is illiterate and so can only learn by being taught. At the 25 point level... he might have one spell that is useful and lacks prerequisites. Prerequisites are important, and in 3e a major source of game balance - they had to be at Level 12 before you could learn something that required them!

Bless Plants, with its three Prerequities becomes expensive indeed; neither IQ nor points into multiple prerequisites are cheap! Due to the lack of points available, we can't afford to give him many skills at all and if we stick to just knowing Bless Plants plus prerequisites at Level 12, he's possible as a 25 point character... provided he is allowed enough Disadvantages.

So... even if Magery 0 is relatively common for a setting, usual point guidelines may keep hedgewizards that are good at more than one spell (preferably one lacking prerequisites) from being common. In turn, this makes this idea that they are increasing yield across large areas (e.g. nations or worldwide) enough to be significant in the face of the extra likely losses due to consumption (you know, feeding the hedgewizard himself - medieval farms didn't have huge outputs to begin with) or damages (mundane plus magical) something you should not take for granted. It could work as has been pitched, but that is a specific design choice, just like orcs aren't inevitable when designing a setting.

We also get this concept of an "ideal world" in many arguments presented in this thread and some that I have been linked to. Well... "ideal" isn't how I'd describe some of the totalitarian regimes described in other threads for "what magic can do", but executing even those requires a lot of careful planning and good fortune. This is why I brought up real world concerns. Not every lord of the manor is going to view magic favorably. There is good reason to believe that the Bless Plants route isn't the best use of magical ability, either. Some areas may be in "no mana zones" or "low mana zones" - unless you're building a "heroic" hedgewizard, most won't be able to cast spells (or effectively cast spells) in Low Mana Zones.

If real world problems are addressed with magic... what is left to address magical world problems? Your mage only has so much skill and Energy with which to work. Not every Mage 0 person is going to be a hedgewizard... so some villages will go without anyway due to simply not knowing someone has magical potential. Others really don't have much potential; IQ 10 and under hedgewizards will need even more study time to learn spells at a useful level. Others will find that the person would rather make a lucrative career out of learning a few useful spells that allow them to just do things that can't be done naturally.

So... even in areas where magic is allowing increased crop yields, that is assuming no interference and ignoring possible increases in demand. Maybe the lord of the manor is the local hedgewizard, but all the extra crops go towards supporting the extra soldiers needed to protect against magical threats. A magical world has more magical threats to protect against. So... if magic is solving the mundane problems, it probably isn't available to combat the magical ones. If it is solving the magical ones, the mundane is probably met with mundane counter measures.

TL;DR: The idea that the existence of local hedgewizard guarantees crop production worldwide or nationwide will essentially double is an assumption based on a somewhat idealized world. One can certainly and legitimately state that "this is how it works in my setting!" but you're hand waving many things, like human nature and how if magic exists in the setting, it exists in the setting and not just for the local heggewizard.

So again, I find it perfectly plausible that magic can exist in a fantasy/medieval setting without radically altering it from the perceived "norm". The organization required to greatly advance civilization is the kind that, for example, in real world history could have preserved the Roman Empire and lead to industrialization centuries earlier.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:59 PM   #86
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Default Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc.

Pretty much the only changed between 3rd and 4th Edition for prerequisites is that now they only need to be known at 1 point, not at absolute skill 12. So you're saved a little bit there, but it's still hard for a 25-75 point wizard to know more than a couple spells at useful levels.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:08 PM   #87
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Default Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc.

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Pretty much the only changed between 3rd and 4th Edition for prerequisites is that now they only need to be known at 1 point, not at absolute skill 12. So you're saved a little bit there, but it's still hard for a 25-75 point wizard to know more than a couple spells at useful levels.
Yeah, but he doesn't really need more than a couple, and there's no particular grounds for assuming wizards actually average out at 25-75 points. A basic hedge wizard in 3e is 55 points plus spells (less disads) -- that gets him IQ+magery of 14 and literacy, meaning he learns prerequisities for 1 point each and a spell to 15 for 6 points. Bless plants only has 3 prerequisites, so you can get it to ritual casting for a cost of 9. It will cost him another 15 points to get Rain-15, and there's not a whole lot else a hedge mage needs.
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:06 PM   #88
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Default Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc.

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Yeah, but he doesn't really need more than a couple, and there's no particular grounds for assuming wizards actually average out at 25-75 points. A basic hedge wizard in 3e is 55 points plus spells (less disads) -- that gets him IQ+magery of 14 and literacy, meaning he learns prerequisities for 1 point each and a spell to 15 for 6 points. Bless plants only has 3 prerequisites, so you can get it to ritual casting for a cost of 9. It will cost him another 15 points to get Rain-15, and there's not a whole lot else a hedge mage needs.
Some of this is the old thread I was linked to spilling over, I think. I brought up a "hedgewizard" in response to the idea that magic means medieval crop yields have to go up barring extreme circumstances, itself brought up as one example of how magic should fundamentally alter the setting.

I don't have a copy of Characters handy (and likely won't for quite some time). I forgot what the range for a "normal" person is in 4e. Remembering point spread is important to such discussions, because we are talking about an in born trait, Magery. So we need to consider that regardless of how much of the population is born with Magery 0, some of it will lack the opportunity or desire to utilize it... and even of those that do wish to become the village mage, they may lack the IQ and points for it. Some will be higher point characters and could be a great hedgewizard... but as they are higher point totals and some of those still might not be in the best 'mage' areas, they might go on instead to be another calling where a bit of magery will take them far; knight, thief, noble... etc.

So... just to be clear, unless at least a significant minority (like one in three) people have at least Magery 0 or the average Point Total for humans in the setting is beyond the normal threshold (preferably both), I believe it is just as plausible that magic isn't going to automatically increase food supplies across the board as assuming that it is.
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