[MH] Holy Hand Grenades

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Langy

I don't understand why 'holy' stuff only does +1d damage per minute (or the sun, for vamps), since this doesn't at all fit with the source material. Is it just because GURPS by default only has Weakness up to +1d per minute with no +1d per second type stuff?

It can do damage more frequently. You just won't get points for it. And always remember that you take the first hit when initially exposed.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It can do damage more frequently. You just won't get points for it. And always remember that you take the first hit when initially exposed.

It is called vulnerability. So 60d per minute is 1d per second.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

It is called vulnerability. So 60d per minute is 1d per second.

Vulnerability multiplies the damage you take from a certain attack form but you only get points for a Vulnerability up to x4.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

It is called vulnerability. So 60d per minute is 1d per second.

Actually it's Weakness. And at least in the basic set, it cannot do more than 1d/minute.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

Actually it's Weakness. And at least in the basic set, it cannot do more than 1d/minute.

No, he's right. Vulnerability to Your Weakness will multiply the damage. Vulnerability x60 would make it Weakness 1/second

But the usual solution is actually to apply the Reduced Time enhancement instead, which is completely endorsed by Kromm.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Langy

I don't understand why 'holy' stuff only does +1d damage per minute (or the sun, for vamps), since this doesn't at all fit with the source material.

Sure it does. It just depends on which source material you happen to be looking at.

To use holy water as an example, it's been anything from useless to an irritant to a deadly weapon to instant death -- and this is for anything from undead to demons to particularly evil humans. To use the sun as an example, some vamps can run across town with nothing but sunblock or an umbrella and just smoke a little, while others open the door and die instantly in a pyre of flame.

So there's no consensus -- sometimes even within the same source! -- as to how this stuff works, or exactly which bad guys it works on. Any attempt to write the Monster Hunters rules to "fit the source material" on a topic with such a varied treatment would be a fool's errand at best. Thus, I made judgment calls based primarily on game balance, because that's a fairly important part of writing a supplement like this.

And in terms of game balance, it simply makes sense. If I were to say that holy attacks do 1d of injury per attack, it would have some negative effects upon the game. Among other things, the only sensible attack against unholy creatures would be holy water (or similar holy attacks). This would have the effect of rendering their DR useless, as well as eliminating the need for a variety of weapons against them. (Remember that Weakness causes injury, ignoring any DR!) By restricting holy attacks to "once per fight (more or less)," it makes it very useful to carry with you (or have as a feature on your weapon), but doesn't become the end-all, be-all of fighting unholy monsters.

There's room for MH monsters who are more vulnerable to holy attacks, mind you. If someone were to write one up for a book or article with the note, "Parademons are very susceptible to holy attacks; they take 1d of injury per second from continued contact with holy water, or +1d of injury per attack from a holy weapon," I'd happily sign off on it. (Of course, I'd note that said parademon is now basically an instant-kill for anyone with a squirt carbine or SMG full of holy-water rounds.)

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

(Of course, I'd note that said parademon is now basically an instant-kill for anyone with a squirt carbine or SMG full of holy-water rounds.)

And that's where the problems really are with this sort of thing. If you play with Holy Water being that incredibly dangerous, then it has to be about as hard to work with (for whatever reason) as other incredibly dangerous substances. Horrible acids do horrible things to humans, but they're also very touchy, so they don't particularly ruin the game experience.

The holy water doesn't have to be lethal to humans of course (that would defeat the point of not using horrible acids) but if you want it to be the Ultimo Destructo Dracularum, and make a game about killing vampires any sort of challenge, you basically have to make it stuff defiled by any non-ritualized handling. No supersoakers, no water balloons, no hollow-point bullets filled with it, no stuffing garlic cloves, silver shavings, and a few wolfsbane buds in the water to create generic "Supernatural Killomat" liquid.

It's either the direct force of Divine Power made physical, and needs to be treated with all the respect that entails so adventurers can really only pull it out once in a blue moon as a Deus Ex Machina, or it's "OK" but can survive adventuring and creative problem solving.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It can do damage more frequently. You just won't get points for it. And always remember that you take the first hit when initially exposed.

No, it can't. It specifically says so in the MH book - monsters vulnerable to Holy damage can only take a maximum of 1d per minute of damage, never higher.

Note that I'm not talking about building a custom GURPS character using the Basic Set. I'm talking about monsters (which don't get point costs) in an MH game.

And in terms of game balance, it simply makes sense. If I were to say that holy attacks do 1d of injury per attack, it would have some negative effects upon the game. Among other things, the only sensible attack against unholy creatures would be holy water (or similar holy attacks). This would have the effect of rendering their DR useless, as well as eliminating the need for a variety of weapons against them. (Remember that Weakness causes injury, ignoring any DR!) By restricting holy attacks to "once per fight (more or less)," it makes it very useful to carry with you (or have as a feature on your weapon), but doesn't become the end-all, be-all of fighting unholy monsters.

I don't see how holy attacks restricted to once per fight are at all 'very useful' to carry around. 1d of injury simply is not significant enough to matter, and Hunters can usually deal more damage than that with their normal, able-to-repeat-once-per-minute attack form. It takes over ten hits of 1d damage in order to begin to endanger a Vampire - knocking off just one tenth of the vamp's minimum HP-to-death really doesn't seem that all-powerful. EDIT: I also don't see how fleeting contact should deal the same exact amount of damage as being fully immersed in a vat of holy water. The second option should deal much more damage.

The one I specifically dislike is sunlight. A normal vampire can sit around in the sunlight for over ten minutes before they begin to have to make death checks. I don't think that fits with any source at all - they usually either have to cover themselves in some fashion and run between darkness really fast in order to avoid getting really hurt by fire (Buffyverse 'super' vamps like Angel or Spike), die really quickly to sunlight (all other Buffyverse vamps, most other depictions of vampires), or aren't effected by sunlight much at all (Twilight, Being Human vamps). I don't know of any that can just sit out in the sun sipping pina coladas for ten minutes without worry.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Bruno

No, he's right. Vulnerability to Your Weakness will multiply the damage. Vulnerability x60 would make it Weakness 1/second

But the usual solution is actually to apply the Reduced Time enhancement instead, which is completely endorsed by Kromm.

I see, but Vulnerability only goes to x4 in the Basic Set. Reduced Time, on the other hand, would as you say be much more useful in this case.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

There's room for MH monsters who are more vulnerable to holy attacks, mind you. If someone were to write one up for a book or article with the note, "Parademons are very susceptible to holy attacks; they take 1d of injury per second from continued contact with holy water, or +1d of injury per attack from a holy weapon," I'd happily sign off on it. (Of course, I'd note that said parademon is now basically an instant-kill for anyone with a squirt carbine or SMG full of holy-water rounds.)

How Apokoliptic :)

I don't think they should actually be especially vulnerable to holy attacks, though.