MH3 is out!

[PK]

Originally Posted by griffin

While that sort of matches the original Buffy video game on Xbox, it doesn't match the show. There are plenty of instances where single stakes took out vamps. I think Willow even took one out once using a Number 2 pencil.

Sure, but who the heck wants that in a game? Vampires that go from "fine" to "dust" in one hit -- even from a pencil? "What are we fighting?" "Vamps." "Whew! I thought it was zombies tonight. Glad to hear it's something easier!" Bleh, I say to that.

Buffy may have been one of the inspirations for this series, but I didn't (and wouldn't) model vampires after the ones on that show. The vampires in MH3 are more a mesh of the suckers from Vampire$ and Monster Hunter International.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Sure, but who the heck wants that in a game? Vampires that go from "fine" to "dust" in one hit -- even from a pencil? "What are we fighting?" "Vamps." "Whew! I thought it was zombies tonight. Glad to hear it's something easier!" Bleh, I say to that.

Vampires sometimes can resemble Ninjas, with their Conservation of Ninjutsu... they can get more dangerous the fewer of them there are.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Sure, but who the heck wants that in a game? Vampires that go from "fine" to "dust" in one hit -- even from a pencil? "What are we fighting?" "Vamps." "Whew! I thought it was zombies tonight. Glad to hear it's something easier!" Bleh, I say to that.

Buffy may have been one of the inspirations for this series, but I didn't (and wouldn't) model vampires after the ones on that show. The vampires in MH3 are more a mesh of the suckers from Vampire$ and Monster Hunter International.

It might be well enough, really, so long as you make sure it's really quite difficult to get those -5 heart hits through the vampire's defenses. Or really difficult for just about anyone but the PCs.

The run of the mill Buffy vamps may have been cannon fodder for Buffy and even eventually for the Scoobies, but against your average citizen (even if clued in), that Vulnerability's not actually going to come into play that often. First off, they're at least a bit faster and a good bit stronger, and seem to have a moderate level of innate fighting skill, so:

a) Joe Vampire goes first even if not getting the element of surprise,
b) has a high enough skill compared to Joe Victim to do a little Deceptive Attack based on speed if Joe Victim is defending, and can amp that with AoA if no pointy wooden implements are in evidence; if Joe Victim is waving a stake around, the vamps take their time, disarming and such
c) has better defenses than Joe Victim
d) hits harder

Still, Joe Vampire is indeed a mook - even some of the graduating class were successfully taking out vampires with melee weapons, presumably without any special training in their use, so you're probably talking a lot of default use of Axe/Mace and Broadsword and Spear and Knife (for stakes), supplemented with AoA to have a decent chance of hitting, actually working on some of the vampires, although as Harmony shows, a lot of times it went the other way. But there's no other way for Xander and Willow, even tag teaming, to have taken out any vamps and not gotten eaten that first summer.

The tougher vamps like Darla and Luke and Angelus and Spike, and of course the master vamps like the Master and Kakistos, were a different deal; greater combat skill and possibly Enhanced Defenses allowing for near-flawless Active Defenses; apparently Danger Sense and good levels of Parry Missile Weapons (for crossbow bolts) for both Angelus and the Master; some DR for Kakistos; and quite possibly Luck for some of them to account for never blowing a defense roll when it really matters.

[Novembermike]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

The run of the mill Buffy vamps may have been cannon fodder for Buffy and even eventually for the Scoobies, but against your average citizen (even if clued in), that Vulnerability's not actually going to come into play that often. First off, they're at least a bit faster and a good bit stronger, and seem to have a moderate level of innate fighting skill, so:

Buffy vampires should get a couple points of DX and maybe 3-4 points of ST, and that's really it as far as their advantages go. Maybe some HT as well, but that's never really shown. They're dangerous because they're strong, fast and tough, but they're also generally untrained and they don't tend to make use of complex weapons. It's perfectly reasonable that someone with 20-30 points in actual combat skills could go toe to toe with one relatively easily and I'm sure that the gang would have qualified for that fairly quickly.

The dangerous vampires are the old ones because they actually have the skills to match their stats. You're talking about high levels of karate, strategy and better prep work.

GURPS actually does a decent job of this by default.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Novembermike

Buffy vampires should get a couple points of DX and maybe 3-4 points of ST, and that's really it as far as their advantages go. Maybe some HT as well, but that's never really shown. They're dangerous because they're strong, fast and tough, but they're also generally untrained and they don't tend to make use of complex weapons. It's perfectly reasonable that someone with 20-30 points in actual combat skills could go toe to toe with one relatively easily and I'm sure that the gang would have qualified for that fairly quickly.

The dangerous vampires are the old ones because they actually have the skills to match their stats. You're talking about high levels of karate, strategy and better prep work.

GURPS actually does a decent job of this by default.

They've got Unkillable with a number of Achilles' Heels (not Supernatural Durability because they can be tased or punched into unconsciousness), probably Injury Tolerance (Unliving) or maybe even (Homogenous) to reduce potential damage from bullets, and a high enough HT that they can frequently take being plugged with a few bullets and not blow the roll to avoid unconsciousness. And since Angel can recover from injuries when feeding on nothing but animal blood from the fridge, they clearly don't have Unhealing, and may even have a bit of Regeneration. Doesn't Breathe, definitely. Maybe some enhanced senses, even newbies can hear better and smell blood and see well in the dark. Possibly some movement abilities, though this is inconsistent - but the vamp that Connor chases over rooftops and does the rapid lizard climb and rooftop drop maneuvers isn't supposed to be any kind of master. And all of them seem to wake up with what looks like a point or two in Karate, or Brawling they think is Karate, based on the flying spinning kicks.

It's just that the Vulnerabilities and Weaknesses are really big, too, and any Injury Tolerance is probably not effective against heart shots. Maybe even Fragile (Unnatural) limited to heart shots... and maybe to neck strikes attempting decapitation too.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Novembermike

Buffy vampires should get a couple points of DX and maybe 3-4 points of ST, and that's really it as far as their advantages go. Maybe some HT as well, but that's never really shown. They're dangerous because they're strong, fast and tough, but they're also generally untrained and they don't tend to make use of complex weapons. It's perfectly reasonable that someone with 20-30 points in actual combat skills could go toe to toe with one relatively easily and I'm sure that the gang would have qualified for that fairly quickly.

The dangerous vampires are the old ones because they actually have the skills to match their stats. You're talking about high levels of karate, strategy and better prep work.

GURPS actually does a decent job of this by default.

Buffy vamps are pretty consistently portrayed as much stronger than this. For example, I just watched the episode of Angel with the street kids fighting vampires, and in that episode a newly created vamp throws a human across the room. The street kids' life is portrayed as extremely dangerous, even though they have plenty of wooden weapons and general outnumber the vamps in fights. In other episodes, it's suggested that just about all a normal person can do against a vampire is shove a cross in its face and run.

In one or two early episodes of Buffy, it's emphasized that ordinary people (i.e. non-slayers) have some difficulty actually hitting the heart as opposed to just general chest area. What makes vamps end up looking so weak is that for most of the show, ordinary people can always hit the heart if the plot requires it. But for an RPG, I think Buffy-style vampires could be a plenty significant threat.

[ClayDowling]

Let's keep in mind that Buffy vamps are designed for narrative convenience, rather than adherence to tradition. Joss Whedon was open about the dusting thing: he didn't want each episode to be about "Where do we hide the body this time."

If you are unsatisfied with the vampires as presented, Blood Types would be a good investment to give you ideas for how to customize your vamps. Besides, there's a good chance your players have looked at the books as written. Changing the vampires up a little bit will keep them from getting complacent.