[Supers] Nerfed Marvel Universe

[Anders]

Originally Posted by naloth

I'd say it's easier to make him an athlete that was juiced up like the Hulk. Cain's early goals could revolve around being more powerful than is step-brother or destroying whatever Xavier builds. Backers for the experiment could be anti-mutant or just want revenge on the X-men themselves.

The helmet could be a prototype - too big and bulky for "normal" people, but a step closer to developing what Magneto wears.

Or yet another attempt to recreate the super-soldier serum. How many are we up to?

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Mole Man (Harvey Rupert Elder). Based on this threads rules, he'll require some extra tinkering: his Moloid servants, as well as the other fantastic beasts he sometimes commands, will just need alternate origins, but as a super-villain scientist, I'm thinking that shouldn't be a problem.

I'll think about it.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Just wanted to make sure that you're intentionally aging up Johnny Storm. It can affect various aspects of the character, but in the comics, he was only 16 when he joined Reed, Sue, and Ben on their flight. I can definitely understand aging him up because of how bad it makes Reed look, but I could still see making him fresh out of high school at age 18 when Sue introduced him to Reed.

If Johnny needs to be 21 for other reasons, okay. If you already gave those reasons and I just missed them, my apologies. One of the "aspects" of the Johnny Storm was how he was around Spider-Man's age, at most a few years older. Part of why the two bonded and have had a pretty long term friendship in the comics. I know, I know; characters in this thread don't have to perfectly match the comics, but I thought it worth bringing up.

Spider-Man will still be in high school in the present-day of the timeline (making him around 12 during the FF's origin), so that particular ship has sailed. I could age Johnny down 2-3 years, though. I don't have any particular attachment to his current age, but him being younger than 18 makes bringing him on a planned, official mission child endangerment.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Though that does let me transition to my final point: the importance of preserving vital aspects of characters, even as you change how they got their powers.

Yes, I know I quoted someone else (Varyon), but Juggernaut (Cain Marko) in X-Men: The Last Stand is a "good" bad example. It isn't that they couldn't make him a mutant... but they left out his relationship with Charles Xavier (they're step brothers and originally, they did not get along). This resentment lead to Cain being anti-mutant for a time. Yeah, even while a villain he got over it: one of his long-time friends and regular partners-in-crime was (is?) Black Tom Cassidy (a mutant).

So... adapting him can go very wrong. Varyon's suggestion works well. You could also make him technology-based since superscience technology is allowed. Maybe you'll come up with something else. Just... don't do him like X3. XP

Originally Posted by pawsplay

If you swap Science! for magic, the Juggernaut could be a power armor guy with an anti-psi helmet.

Originally Posted by naloth

I'd say it's easier to make him an athlete that was juiced up like the Hulk. Cain's early goals could revolve around being more powerful than is step-brother or destroying whatever Xavier builds. Backers for the experiment could be anti-mutant or just want revenge on the X-men themselves.

The helmet could be a prototype - too big and bulky for "normal" people, but a step closer to developing what Magneto wears.

Currently, my plan is to have Juggernaut be the subject of genetic experimentation by his father. The constant reminders that he's not good enough on his own, while Charles is because of his powers, will definitely breed the necessary resentment.

Originally Posted by Anders

Or yet another attempt to recreate the super-soldier serum. How many are we up to?

Ain't that the truth. But hey, it provides a simple explanation for why various powerful individuals and organizations are engaging in that kind of research.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Spider-Man will still be in high school in the present-day of the timeline (making him around 12 during the FF's origin), so that particular ship has sailed. I could age Johnny down 2-3 years, though. I don't have any particular attachment to his current age, but him being younger than 18 makes bringing him on a planned, official mission child endangerment.

Maybe he stowed away. Having teenagers do stupid **** isn't exactly a stretch of the imagination.

[Phantasm]

One thing to ask yourself, though: If there is a reliable means to give someone superhuman strength and durability - like the Power Broker's process developed by Dr. Karl Malus - of what use is the super-soldier serum that "merely" boosts to "peak normal human"?

If the super-soldier serum does something other than just increasing strength and durability - for example, in my Reboot project it greatly retarded Cap's aging, giving a few levels of Extended Lifespan, or if it boosts DX as well - then it's something that will continue to be researched for replication.

Just food for thought. Lately it just seems as though "still trying to replicate the serum when we already have something giving better results" is a trope the comics can't seem to get out of.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

One thing to ask yourself, though: If there is a reliable means to give someone superhuman strength and durability - like the Power Broker's process developed by Dr. Karl Malus - of what use is the super-soldier serum that "merely" boosts to "peak normal human"?

If the super-soldier serum does something other than just increasing strength and durability - for example, in my Reboot project it greatly retarded Cap's aging, giving a few levels of Extended Lifespan, or if it boosts DX as well - then it's something that will continue to be researched for replication.

Just food for thought. Lately it just seems as though "still trying to replicate the serum when we already have something giving better results" is a trope the comics can't seem to get out of.

Yeah, one of the things I'm making sure to do in this setting is make sure any successful attempt at human enhancement has some combination of the following:
A) is irreproducible or inconsistent
B) Has horrible side effects
C) Is too expensive to be economical.
D) Coincidentally (or not) is destroyed after being used successfully
The SS serum is so desirable because (in its original form) it doesn't have any of the first three.

[AlexanderHowl]

Actually, given the required setup in the Marvel movies, it might have been horribly expensive to mass produce. Imagine a scenario where it would have cost $10 million in 1941 (more than a Fletcher-Class destroyer) per soldier, after the process was perfected, and it would have likely not been used that frequently. There would have been a real conversation about cost-benefit analysis, and I doubt that more than a 100 would have been fielded at any one time.

Of course, it would have been a really good way to bankrupt the Third Reich, as the cost would have greatly exceeded the utility. Allow the formula and process to leak to the Nazis through known sympathizers, and Nazis would not have been able to help themselves. They would have bankrupted themselves within a year trying to create an army of super soldiers that could individually be crushed by normal unfantry platoon.

[awesomenessofme1]

Thing

Real Name: Benjamin Jacob Grimm
Height: 7’2”
Weight: 800 lb
Age: 35
Hair: None
Eyes: Blue
Uniform: Blue shorts, black boots. For public appearances, sometimes wears a bodysuit in the style of the other Fantastic Four members.
Powers: Superhuman strength allowing him to lift well in excess of 10 tons. Armored, rocky exterior providing a high level of durability. High resistance (though not immunity) to poisons, disease, and other biological threats.
Skills: Degree in engineering. Excellent pilot. Skilled in unarmed combat.

Ben Grimm grew up poor in New York City. He was affiliated with a street gang in his youth, though he never went too far in terms of crime and he left them during high school. Grimm went to college on football and ROTC scholarships, where he met his future best friend and teammate Reed Richards (at about the same age, but significantly different levels of schooling). After school, he joined the Air Force, where he distinguished himself as a pilot and later astronaut. When Richards began his mission-to-Mars project, Grimm jumped at the chance to pilot his ship. On that trip, even after the ship was damaged by unknown cosmic radiation, Grimm was able to keep it on course and safely returned to Earth. In the weeks that followed, Grimm’s body began to change as a result of the radiation. He grew significantly, his hair fell out, and his skin became orange and stony. When Richards and the rest of the crew formed a new team of heroes, Grimm took the name “Thing” as a reference to how he wasn’t quite human anymore. He holds a small amount of resentment toward the others for how he was affected compared to them, but for the most part, he feels accepted within the Fantastic Four. Outside of them, for the most part, he keeps to himself, hating reminders of how he’s different.

Thing [868]

Attributes [185]
ST 28/70 (L30/120) [90]
DX 11 [20]
IQ 12 [40]
HT 13 [30]
Damage 3d-1/5d+1 (8d/10d)
BL 180 lb (2880 lb)
HP 28 [0]
Will 12 [0]
Per 13 [5]
FP 13 [0]
Basic Speed 6.00 [0]
Basic Move 6 [0]
Dodge 10
SM+1

Advantages [682]
3D Spatial Sense [10]
Combat Reflexes [15]
Fit [5]
High Pain Threshold [10]
Hot Pilot 2 [10]
Damage Reduction (10) [150]
DR25 (Can’t wear armor, -40%) [75]
Injury Tolerance (Homogenous; No Blood) [45]
Lifting ST+2/50 (Super-Effort, +400%; Size, -10%) [30]
Resistant to Metabolic Hazards (+8) [15]
ST+8/50 (Super-Effort, +300%; Size, -10%) [312]
Vacuum Support [5]

Perks [2]
Nonprotective Clothing [1]
Striking Surface [1]

Disadvantages [-65]
Addiction (Tobacco (Cheap, highly addictive, legal)) [-5]
Bad Temper (12) [-10]
Ham-Fisted [-5]
Light Sleeper [-5]
No Sense of Smell/Taste [-5]
Pacifism (Cannot Harm Innocents) [-10]
Social Stigma (Freak) [-10]
Stubbornness [-5]
Thalassophobia (12) [-10]

Quirks [-5]
Cannot Float [-1]
Checkered Past [-1]
Does his best to act normal [-1]
Prone to brooding [-1]
Uncongenial [-1]

Skills [69]
Area Knowledge (New York City)-12 [1]
Astronomy/TL8-10 [1]
Boxing-13 [8]
Breath Control-12 [2]
Climbing-10 [1]
Driving/TL8 (Automobile)-10 [1]
Engineer/TL8 (Spaceships)-12 [4]
First Aid/TL8-12 [1]
Free Fall-13 [2] ¹
Gunner/TL8 (Machine Gun)-14 [2] ²
Hiking-12 [1]
Intimidation-11 [1]
Leadership-11 [1]
Mathematics/TL8 (Applied)-11 [2]
Navigation/TL8 (Air)-18 [4] ² ³
Navigation/TL8 (Space)-15 [1] ¹ ²
Observation-13 [2]
Parachuting/TL8-12 [2]
Physics/TL8-10 [2]
Piloting/TL8 (High-Performance Aircraft)-16 [8] ² ⁴
Piloting/TL8 (High-Performance Spacecraft)-14 [2] ² ⁴
Running-12 [1]
Savoir-Faire (Military)-12 [1]
Shiphandling/TL8 (Spaceship)-11 [2]
Soldier/TL8-13 [4]
Spacer/TL8-14 [4]
Sports (Football)-11 [2]
Tactics-10 [1]
Vacc Suit/TL8-10 [1]
Wrestling-12 [4]

1 – includes +2 from 3D Spatial Sense
2 – includes +2 from Hot Pilot
3 – includes +3 from 3D Spatial Sense
4 – includes +1 from 3D Spatial Sense

[naloth]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Thing

Even downsized a bit, I would have expected Grimm to have a higher ST (closer to 40ish tons) and a grappling ST a touch higher than Reed's (at 30). Usually the Thing is a bit subpar to the (non-enraged) Hulk. This version would get pebblized.

Grimm also has periodic bouts of being a normal human. It might be good to write up his human stats as a reference point in case his powers get neutralized or cured.

I don't think he really needs Hard to Subdue (with a base HT14) as much as he just needs more durability to be in line with the other characters you've posted.

I don't recall him being afraid of oceans?

The Thing also has at least a quirk enemy in the Yancy street gang, perhaps more if they are treated as a serious street gang.

I'd downgrade his smoking to a quirk: "likes cigars".

He really doesn't have a stigma as much as he has a serious chip about his appearance. The Thing is usually one of the more popular (and down to earth) FF members even in the comics.

The Thing has been known to have severe mood swings. He could be considered manic depressive.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by naloth

Even downsized a bit, I would have expected Grimm to have a higher ST (closer to 40ish tons) and a grappling ST a touch higher than Reed's (at 30). Usually the Thing is a bit subpar to the (non-enraged) Hulk. This version would get pebblized.

An issue of granularity on the strength front, unfortunately. I might bump his durability up a bit, though. Re: Hulk, though, I did the math, and with his DR25 and IT:DR5, one of Hulk's 19d+19 punches would deal about 12 damage on average. Very painful, but that's not even a major wound.

Originally Posted by naloth

Grimm also has periodic bouts of being a normal human. It might be good to write up his human stats as a reference point in case his powers get neutralized or cured.

Good call. I have a decent idea of what changes would be made, so I'll try to make that.

Originally Posted by naloth

I don't think he really needs Hard to Subdue (with a base HT14) as much as he just needs more durability to be in line with the other characters you've posted.

Going to be honest here, I don't actually remember my thought process for giving him that. Might just have been working off of the Supers brick template. I'll give that another look.

Originally Posted by naloth

I don't recall him being afraid of oceans?

That was something I invented for the setting. I thought it made sense and could prove interesting in play.

Originally Posted by naloth

The Thing also has at least a quirk enemy in the Yancy street gang, perhaps more if they are treated as a serious street gang.

I'd downgrade his smoking to a quirk: "likes cigars".

Noted.

Originally Posted by naloth

He really doesn't have a stigma as much as he has a serious chip about his appearance. The Thing is usually one of the more popular (and down to earth) FF members even in the comics.

In this setting, I'm using Social Stigma (Freak) to represent people who are significantly, obviously physically different from humans. It's not quite the same as the way it's phrased in Supers (might need a new name). It means that people who don't know him (or know of him, at least) will react poorly if they meet him or see him in action. If I were using Reputation more (and I might do that in later revisions), I'd definitely give him a high enough Reputation to counteract it for most people.

Originally Posted by naloth

The Thing has been known to have severe mood swings. He could be considered manic depressive.

Noted.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

I'll think about it.

Yeah. I only brought him up since someone else suggested adding another enemy for him, but I saw only a suggestion of Galactus, who doesn't fit the scope of your project and whom I don't recall ever being protrayed as Richard's enemy. A threat to humanity, yes, but due to his own survival needs.

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Spider-Man will still be in high school in the present-day of the timeline (making him around 12 during the FF's origin), so that particular ship has sailed. I could age Johnny down 2-3 years, though. I don't have any particular attachment to his current age, but him being younger than 18 makes bringing him on a planned, official mission child endangerment.

Originally Posted by Anders

Maybe he stowed away. Having teenagers do stupid **** isn't exactly a stretch of the imagination.

Both good points. I think I'll add a few more.

• 16-years-old is nearly an adult in most (all) of the USA.; there may be a way to do this legally.
• Richards actually does do this sort of thing on a semi-regular basis. He underestimates the danger, or is just to focused on "the science" to worry about legal details.
• Johnny may be a last minute substitution. Either he goes or the launch is scrubbed... and Reed was comfortable with his girlfriend (Sue) and bestfriend (Ben) going on this mission with Reed himself.
• Realistically, this is a fantastic opporunity for Johnny, no pun intended. Think of it in terms of a 16-year-old relative of yours getting to work on builing the first manned space-mission to Mars... and maybe even being part of the crew!
• Johnny may have lied about his age, with Sue being too distracted or simpling supporting him in this.

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Currently, my plan is to have Juggernaut be the subject of genetic experimentation by his father. The constant reminders that he's not good enough on his own, while Charles is because of his powers, will definitely breed the necessary resentment.

Good, you have the most important part down: the relationships. :D

I am thinking Juggernaut might be a good candidate for mixing and matching power sources. His "beefy boi" physique could be a process developed by the Xaviers and Marko, and eventually sold. It only worked on those already in good physical condition, and with a certain genetic profile... but not most of humanity. Once Cain realizes this isn't enough to trump Charles' mental prowess, Cain looks for more, and slowly finds it.

Like armor designed to protect from outside mental influence as much as damage to the body. Eventually, Cain would get a crystal-like force-field generator installed in his body, along with the nanites needed to maintain it... and as a bonus, also maintain the rest of one's body. That would cover all of Juggernaut's major powers, I believe. Well, excluding those added over the past 20 or so years. Also, he isn't literally unstoppable - hard to justify that without magic - but the technology lets him fake it really well.

Originally Posted by Anders

Ain't that the truth. But hey, it provides a simple explanation for why various powerful individuals and organizations are engaging in that kind of research.

If you're okay with it, the above also could explain the "beefy boi" side of various other villains (maybe even a few heroes). Complications arise when someone who isn't fully compatible tries it anyway. As established with Juggernaut, you'll also need "something else" to really make it as a supervillain... and that actually lines up with many comic book villain origins.