What happens if; Points for gear

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

IMO, GURPS Ally rules are... somewhat broken, in a way even the wealth rules aren't.

AFAICT, 4e Ally rules are broken in the manner that they are, because the 3e Ally rules were broken in a different way, and this was an attempt to fix them. If you have a copy of GURPS Lensman, have a look at the character sheets for Kimbal Kinnison et al, which IIRC demonstrated the problem.

[ericthered]

Pyramid 3/76 has an article called "The captain's boat" dedicated to the idea of vehicles as allies. I highly recommend it.

I wrote up C31R07 (the Buddhist killbot from iconic characters) using that method a few years ago on my blog. It dropped his point value from the 1,500 point range to 412 points. C31R07 is powerful, but he's not demigod territory.

You do need to be careful that you aren't giving people who buy things as an ally don't have an edge. Be sure that iron man and thor are buying strength in approximately the same way. Supers are one of the few cases when I look at not allowing vehicles as allies. Though I also look at treating bricks as living vehicles.

[onetrikpony]

Originally Posted by ericthered

You do need to be careful that you aren't giving people who buy things as an ally don't have an edge. Be sure that iron man and thor are buying strength in approximately the same way.

At first I was thinking; "That's a good point. What about the 'Thor' characters in Magic-and-Mecha? What about the the alien supers I'd like to have in my setting."

Then I realized.

IronMan and Thor DON'T buy things in the same way, not in marvel, not in GURPS. Tony stark pays cash, Thor pays CP.

CASE IN POINT; (UT p183, 186) Commando Battle suit. $90,000.00 with helmet.

This is the smallest TL10 battle suit. I just added up all the traits and advantage on this suit.

It comes to 505 CP.

The merely wealthy Mercenary can have it for 20CP but he's a rambler and can't afford a house.

The very wealthy Mercenary can have it for 30CP and still have 80% of his savings invested in a nice house.

Thor can have equivalent abilities (full time by nature, cant be stolen, with average intelligence) for 705CP and live in a rented a condo.

but he can't do it in a 250 point game.

Which brings me back to my premise; Does paying for high $$ gear with character points (as allies in some cases), instead of wealth, Screw those character archetypes who don't use a lot of gear?

I'm becoming convinced that the answer is NOPE.

Not as bad as it would screw a soldier or merc in a TL10 game by making them pay 505 points for setting-standard gear.

I'm thinking that 'big gear' should cost some character points. Whether its bought as an Ally or (GM fiat) Unusual background, or--perfectly legitimate--Gobs of Starting Wealth left over after you pay a 80% party-pad tax.

Interestingly; the commando suit can be purchased for 30 points of Very Wealthy, or 33 points of Ally/Possession/Puppet. Being rich is always better deal but you don't *have* to be rich to play the character concept of a mecha pilot or a Heavy cyborg.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

IMO, GURPS Ally rules are... somewhat broken, in a way even the wealth rules aren't.

DFRPG made Signature Gear a perk that provides plot protection to a relationship. I think I'm in favor of doing the same with Ally. Maybe even the same perk because, as seen in this thread, the line between equipment and NPC can be pretty blurry.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

NOPE.
One feature that I'm trying to build into the setting is *not* limiting background and story.

If power armor is freely available to anyone, then why is your power armor expensive (in setting currency) in the first place?

Or by "CP for gear", did you mean trading starting points for cash, or the Signature Gear rules (not the same rate) as opposed to spending CP on Wealth (not the same rate as either of the other two) which for these particular characters just represents the value of their power armor? In all three cases, it's "CP for gear".

(Wealth doesn't have to represent a Tony-Stark style playboy -- especially when there's no associated income. If it's just that the character happens to own valuable stuff for whatever reason, it's the same "whatever reason" that is the backstory for the Sig Gear or having 1500 CP to trade for cash.)

CP and setting currency are really two different things. I don't find trying to convert between them to be particularly useful.

And the campaign advantage concept still applies. If you don't want the characters to have the same Patron, but you do want them all to have power armor, then rather than give them a Patron, you can give them the power armor.

[Stormcrow]

As far as I'm concerned, vehicles and other gear are not characters unless they are treated like characters. I could believe that the Millennium Falcon is Han Solo's Ally: it has personality and distinctive behavior. I could not believe that Luke Skywalker's X-Wing is a character: it's just a conveyance with guns.

And I'd be far more likely to consider the Falcon as Signature Gear rather than a character Ally that shows up to participate in Han's adventures. When you think of Han Solo, you think of his ship. That's the very definition of Signature Gear. (In fact, the definition of Signature Gear includes "you won your starship in a card game.")

The meanings behind traits are as important as the mechanical operations of those traits. Just because Ally or Signature Gear lets you get stuff really cheap doesn't mean it's appropriate to the character. The player needs to be prepared to justify to the GM what the trait actually means, not just what the numbers add up to, and the GM shouldn't be too lenient in this.

The source of the gear should determine how you get it. If you buy it with cash, use cash. If it's an integral part of your character concept, use Signature Gear. If it's got its own personality and shows up on its own with certain frequency, use Ally. If someone gives it to you to perform a duty, use Patron or Rank. If it's just part of the campaign background and not specific to your character, the GM should give it for free.

If the source of your gear doesn't lead to the most efficient way of getting that gear... sorry, but that's just the way it is.

[onetrikpony]

So; I'm a dope.

I revisited my math and found an error. Turns out buying a vehicle or battle suit with the IQ 0 ally rules makes it way more expensive than the cost of wealth, patron etc.

Anyhow, correct arithmetic firmly quashes any argument that "Gear as ally" is any type of point abuse.

Here's the Math.

Character points 250. Tech Level 10.

Value of Commando Battle Suit; $90,000.00, CP 505. (UT 183)

Patron: 1000 x starting cash, (Equipment +100%) 20 points
(this would often include a Duty for 10 points)

Wealthy: 5 x starting cash (unsettled no domestic equipment +0%) 20 points, & $90,000.00

Very Wealthy: 20 x starting cash (80% reserved for domestic equipment, cars, servants) 30 points, & $90,000.00

Ally: IQ 0, Constant Availability 4x CP; (Robot minion +0%, Special Abilites +50%, Sympathy -25%, Can be Stolen -20%)
10 CP (for first 375pts of Ally value)
5 cp (for remaining 125 points of ally value)
4 x constant availability modifier
[60] points
+5% for modifiers (50%-25%-20%)
63 points
+ Possession (Parasitic -60%, Puppet Only -30%) 20 points
+ Puppet: reprogrammable 5 points
TOTAL 88 points

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

S
Ally: IQ 0, Constant Availability 4x CP; (Robot minion +0%, Special Abilites +50%, Sympathy -25%, Can be Stolen -20%)
1]

As a general principle I would rule that nothing you can buy with cash counts as "special abilities".

[onetrikpony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

As a general principle I would rule that nothing you can buy with cash counts as "special abilities".

I have a different point of view.

As a general principal I would rule that anything that adds 150% to an Attribute score, and grants an ability like Super Jump (2) Is pretty special.

I feel like any piece of gear that can add significantly (or at all) to basic stats and has a continuous duration of more than a few hours, should probably have a point cost.

I think that ethos is backed by the point costs of cybernetic and biotech upgrades in UT.

[Daigoro]

Isn't there a suggestion that vehicles and mechs built on points should have DX and IQ of N/A?