More Vor questions

[Inquisitive Raven]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

Miles is proof that a child gestated in a UR is a child.

Do remember that Miles was conceived in the traditional fashion and only transferred to the replicator after the soltoxin attack, so they can't really pull that one on him. That hasn't stopped the conservatives from trying to disqualify him as a mutant though.

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

I've not seen mention in canon of an heir recognized as heir who never was in his mother's body... but daughters, sure. The guy with the 50+ daughters... and a duty to pay dowry for all of them...

And that ruling was handed down by, drumroll please, Lord Auditor Miles Vorkosigan. Gotta admit, that has to be a uniquely Barrayaran twist on reproduction tech jurisprudence.

[Jürgen Hubert]

A few points:

- The Count's 50 daughters were legally considered his bastards, which is why he had to pay dowries for them - but presumably not because they came out of uterine replicators, but because they were not also his wife's children.

- Barrayaran inheritance laws clearly favor Count's choice when it comes to picking heirs (the case of Lord Midnight, again...), so having children out of uterine replicators wouldn't have been an issue in inheritance anyway - unless there is no declared heir available. Such a situation would probably make an interesting test case for an Imperial Auditor...

- ...though I generally have the feeling that the issue of inheritance for children born out of uterine replicators is largely settled by the time Miles becomes one - uterine replicators are just in too widespread use by that time (given that the third and fourth Koudelka girls were born from them, and they are both adults by the time of "A Civil Campaign"). The issue has probably settled via inertia - enough people, including some Counts from the Progressive camp, have declared children born from replicators as heirs, and thus it has become an established tradition in the "anything done twice" sense. It's the social acceptance among the Vor that's still being fought over.

- Finally, it is mentioned in "Cryoburn" that Gregor and Laisa have "several scarily smart children". Since the marriage ceremonies were deliberately and subtly adjusted so that they implied that there was no duty for any offspring of the union to be actually born in Laisa's body, it should be a given that they used uterine replicators (coupled with genetic screening, to ease Gregor's worries about his own genes). I also think it likely that they started to have kids before Miles and Ekaterin - given that they were under greater pressure to have heirs, they probably didn't decide to wait a year after the marriage to start like the latter. But like I said, Gregor's and Laisa's children probably aren't the first Vor heirs to be born out of uterine replicators - though the first of Imperial rank.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

Finally, it is mentioned in "Cryoburn" that Gregor and Laisa have "several scarily smart children". Since the marriage ceremonies were deliberately and subtly adjusted so that they implied that there was no duty for any offspring of the union to be actually born in Laisa's body, it should be a given that they used uterine replicators (coupled with genetic screening, to ease Gregor's worries about his own genes). I also think it likely that they started to have kids before Miles and Ekaterin - given that they were under greater pressure to have heirs, they probably didn't decide to wait a year after the marriage to start like the latter. But like I said, Gregor's and Laisa's children probably aren't the first Vor heirs to be born out of uterine replicators - though the first of Imperial rank.

There probably are a few Barrayaran ultraconservatives who claim that Gregor and Laisa's kids are bastards and ineligible to inherit. But they're probably taken about as seriously as the people who think Barack Obama is not an American citizen.

It's also worth noting that Miles himself is a bit argument against that claim for the ultraconservatives: not anything Miles says, but the fact that if Gregor dies without an acknowledged heir of his body, it's Emperor Miles. Or Emperor Mark, if Miles has predeceased Gregor. That's got to be a big Don't Go There to the conservatives.

Bill Stoddard

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by whswhs

It's also worth noting that Miles himself is a bit argument against that claim for the ultraconservatives: not anything Miles says, but the fact that if Gregor dies without an acknowledged heir of his body, it's Emperor Miles. Or Emperor Mark, if Miles has predeceased Gregor. That's got to be a big Don't Go There to the conservatives.

Miles is in line for the throne only according to one line of reasoning (female descent). The conservatives presumably don't buy that one. Or rather, they'll be split between "Emperor Dorcas was legitimate, but that's an exception; it doesn't count for the Vorkosigans" and "Emperor Dorcas was an illegitimate usurper and the true heir is...[whoever it is]".


Hans

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

Miles is in line for the throne only according to one line of reasoning (female descent). The conservatives presumably don't buy that one. Or rather, they'll be split between "Emperor Dorcas was legitimate, but that's an exception; it doesn't count for the Vorkosigans" and "Emperor Dorcas was an illegitimate usurper and the true heir is...[whoever it is]".

I don't know how serious an option that was in anyone's mind but Aral's. During the Pretendership all the conservative and anti-Vorkosigan factions seem to have gone for a man whose only claim was that he said he was betrothed to the putatively deceased emperor's mother. If there had been a plausible heir in the other line I think Vordarian would have had a lot less support.

Bill Stoddard

[martinl]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

With the acceptance of the Council of Lord Dono... lots of things are changing one decision at a time.

I have no doubt that things will change - they more or less need to. I'm just surprised that there has been so little violent resistance. Part of that is simple good government, sure, but my mental model has a large subset of the Vor as reactionaries who think they are completely morally justified in resorting to force to stop social change they don't like I mean perverted and immoral practices learned from decadent galactics.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by martinl

I have no doubt that things will change - they more or less need to. I'm just surprised that there has been so little violent resistance. Part of that is simple good government, sure, but my mental model has a large subset of the Vor as reactionaries who think they are completely morally justified in resorting to force to stop [social change they don't like I mean perverted and immoral practices learned from decadent galactics.

Shhh. That's one of the themes of my campaign. I've already had people from the Purity Movement try to sneak past palace security to stage a protest at the state funeral for Lord Auditor Count Vorkosigan, the notorious mutant progressive.

Bill Stoddard

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't know how serious an option that was in anyone's mind but Aral's. During the Pretendership all the conservative and anti-Vorkosigan factions seem to have gone for a man whose only claim was that he said he was betrothed to the putatively deceased emperor's mother. If there had been a plausible heir in the other line I think Vordarian would have had a lot less support.

But Vordarian didn't have all that much support. He had the advantage of striking fast enough to surprise Aral and Negri and managed to take a lot of hostages in Vorbarr Sultana. And he had a few allies who despised Aral and what he and his allies stood for.

But most of the other Vor and power factions (such as much of the military) were just playing a waiting game and seeing who would come up on top after the fighting. After all, if Vordarian was right and Gregor was dead, what was the point of supporting Aral - someone who had failed the boy Emperor and who might have had plans for ursurpation of his own?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

But most of the other Vor and power factions (such as much of the military) were just playing a waiting game and seeing who would come up on top after the fighting. After all, if Vordarian was right and Gregor was dead, what was the point of supporting Aral - someone who had failed the boy Emperor and who might have had plans for ursurpation of his own?

Maybe. But if there was a clearly identified claimant to the throne according to the theory that excluded inheritance in the female line, then it would have been obvious that Vordarian was not that claimant. A conservative legitimist would have wanted him to present himself as making way for the rightful heir to step in and protect Kareen; a pragmatist would have had every reason to favor supporting the rightful heir as a way of avoiding months or years of sheer power struggle.

That there was no such obviously salient claimant in the other line itself argues that the rival theory of succession had ceased to be important even to the Vor conservatives, and was of interest only to a few genealogy-obsessed eccentrics . . . not central to Barrayaran power politics. I don't see why it should become more central after Gregor had reigned for years, if not ideally by conservative lights, at least stably and without major upheavals, which has to have value in itself to a conservative, I think.

Bill Stoddard

[Michael Cule]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Well, that's a fair point, and it's certainly one approach I may take.

I'm partly thinking about "unexpected half-sibling turns up" as a storyline to have in reserve. But whose kid? Mark actually doesn't have Miles's track record, and he seems very devoted to Kareen, though I suppose Grunt might grab the controls away from him. I can't see Duv doing anything that hastily considered, or for that matter letting go of anything he had struggled to get—which in his eyes would include his relationship with Delia. Conceivably Ivan, though the swath he cut as a young man seems to have left no seeds to sprout. (We had a great backstory scene in the first session where Ivan told his two sons of his adventure with the Cetagandan women, and both of them saying, Dad, dad, too much information!) I really can't see it being Gregor, given his hypertrophied sense of responsibility and his fears about procreating at all.

Maybe all of the various couples established stable marriages and are still together. Barrayar is a fairly conservative place overall. But I'm trying to think through the different possibilities.

Bill Stoddard

Perhaps Lady Donna had to give away a bastard child. Perhaps Lord Dono is embarassed by a stranger who calls him 'Momma'...

And now I think of it, this could happen multiple times to Admiral Quinn.

As to your first question, I don't think this would happen at all for reasons encapsulated in the penultimate drabble at the end of the new book. (Desperately trying to avoid spoilers there...)

The only way Miles would sleep with another woman would be if he had his wife's permission. He'd never ask for it and so she would have to volunteer it, perhaps on advice from Kareen, newly qualified source of sophisticated galactic counselling to the Barryaran nobility. ("Dear, if the matter should happen to come up whille you're away with the Dendari, I'm quite happy for you to share Eli's bed. But wait for her to offer, all right?")

As to young Niki, I think the key here may be the native streak of ****wittery he inherited from his father which Miles' good advice hasn't entirely brought under control. He may do things that are not entirely wise and then have to rely on hiis Vorkosigan training and connections to sort out the consequences.