Independent Income at later TL stages

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

You can get an in game income by investing in game money. But that's not the same as the Independent Income advantage. You don't get II from making in game investments, without paying the points, but you still get whatever return that investment provides.

(By the way, note that your quote about gaining the Wealth advantage (1) doesn't talk about Independent Income and (2) says you must amass that amount of money, not spend it.)

I never said you'd get II by only spending the money. I said you should get it by spending both money and points. As for those quotes, the second shows that the first (which is about social advantages) includes those relating to money.

A Job is an in game income source that depends on your character's skill, perhaps such as the skill of choosing an investment or an investment advisor, so while it's not a perfect match, a Job is the closest mechanic GURPS provides.

It also assumes that you spend a lot of time on it, and requires monthly skill checks. It doesn't resemble the passive income stream from a simple low-risk, low-maintenance investment at all.

The box on B266 says "Here's a modern (TL8) example of how housing and transportation would reflect Status."

And at no point did I mention or refer to that box.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I never said you'd get II by only spending the money. I said you should get it by spending both money and points. As for those quotes, the second shows that the first (which is about social advantages) includes those relating to money.

II can be acquired through other in-game justifications, like patenting an invention. The point is, there is no necessary connection between an in game investment which produces a return and the Independent Income advantage unless the GM chooses to let there be.

It also assumes that you spend a lot of time on it, and requires monthly skill checks. It doesn't resemble the passive income stream from a simple low-risk, low-maintenance investment at all.

To the best of my knowledge the rules do not make any specification about the amount of time that must be spent on doing a Job. So there is no reason a monthly Job roll could not apply to something that takes very little time.

And at no point did I mention or refer to that box.

I did, in the post you were responding to.

[Anthony]

Honestly, I'd be tempted to totally get rid of the concept of cost of living and jobs and just go "during periods of downtime, it is assumed that the PCs are working non-hazardous jobs sufficient to cover their basic lifestyle; in addition to this, the GM may give you xp, which may be spent on anything the GM considers reasonable to obtain by simple time and effort, rather than adventuring. A PC who wishes to spend that time working for more money should use those points for wealth or cash".

[maximara]

Originally Posted by whswhs

For that part, note that City Stats says that San Francisco's wealth level is Comfortable, which makes it expensive to live in. These days it might need to be Wealthy. You shouldn't assume that every community's typical residents have Average wealth.

That brings up something I am curious about. What about commuter towns? On their Vado and Dripping Springs (NM) come off as Struggling but thanks to the commutes to Las Cruces, NM they are functionally average.

Then you have cities that wrap around other cities. Whitehall and Bexley have become surrounded by Columbus (OH) but they are still their own cities with their own government. Ironically the oldest strip mall in the US (Town and Country, Opened March 1, 1949) is in Whitehall not Columbus proper even though Columbus proper is generally considered more affluent.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

II can be acquired through other in-game justifications, like patenting an invention. The point is, there is no necessary connection between an in game investment which produces a return and the Independent Income advantage unless the GM chooses to let there be.

And that would be as outlined in the "Traits Gained in Play" box (B291) and thus also applies to Wealth. That doesn't alter how it's supposed to go if the player just wants to buy II (or Wealth, Reputation, etc.) - they need an in-game justification. For II that would surely involve taking some money that their character has and investing it.

To the best of my knowledge the rules do not make any specification about the amount of time that must be spent on doing a Job. So there is no reason a monthly Job roll could not apply to something that takes very little time.

You're right that no time is set, and it's given as up to the GM. I still think it's a bad fit, however.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Honestly, I'd be tempted to totally get rid of the concept of cost of living and jobs and just go "during periods of downtime, it is assumed that the PCs are working non-hazardous jobs sufficient to cover their basic lifestyle; in addition to this, the GM may give you xp, which may be spent on anything the GM considers reasonable to obtain by simple time and effort, rather than adventuring. A PC who wishes to spend that time working for more money should use those points for wealth or cash".

Seems like a reasonable approach if your goal is in fact to eliminate the personal economics sim elements rather than to fix them.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by maximara

That brings up something I am curious about. What about commuter towns? On their Vado and Dripping Springs (NM) come off as Struggling but thanks to the commutes to Las Cruces, NM they are functionally average.

If you're a commuter you're trading free time for either reduced cost of living, increased living area, or higher Social Status.

For example, if you're making an Average income in a city of Comfortable or Wealthy average income, you're either going to be living in a tiny apartment in the city, possibly with roommates, or you're going to be spending 2-4 hours a day in a car or on a train as you commute in from the suburbs or exurbs.

Conversely, if you're making a Wealthy income in a city of Average wealth, the houses which allow you to take advantage of the +1 Social Status for Wealth are likely to be in the suburbs or exurbs. The alternative might be a really fancy condo in the city, but that might not provide sufficient space or security.

Note that wealthy suburbs or exurbs and poorer city cores is a modern phenomena. In times and places before fast long-distance transport city centers were the wealthy areas and suburbs/exurbs were the poorer areas. Likewise, in countries where city cores are well-maintained they remain the wealthy areas.

The exceptions are existing towns which have been swallowed up by an expanding metro area. In such cases, the housing stock, regional identity, or similar factors might reduce or increase cost of living relative to the surrounding area.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by hal

WHAT exactly is independent Income really supposed to be?

Given that GURPS is not a reality simulator, Ind Inc is just a way to spend points to create a character concept that the player finds interesting. There have been a number of explanations for it in this thread. But what it comes down to is the points generate an effect for the PC. Sometimes the points allow the PC to speak a language, or sense danger, or smooth talk NPCs. Sometimes the points represent the PC's place in society. In a very rough sense, the GURPS rules for wealth are mostly a PC-facing game effect that can be controlled using points. That's all it is.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by safisher

But what it comes down to is the points generate an effect for the PC. Sometimes the points allow the PC to speak a language, or sense danger, or smooth talk NPCs. Sometimes the points represent the PC's place in society. In a very rough sense, the GURPS rules for wealth are mostly a PC-facing game effect that can be controlled using points. That's all it is.

Sometimes you can spend points to play a psychic blurberry muffin. Other times GURPS has an insane tangle of effects interactions and restrictions on what traits can be bought in combination with others to enforce a “realistic” set of relationships between Status, Rank, Wealth, work, lifestyle, income, cost-of-living, value of starting gear, value of adventuring gear, starting equipment and so on. And that would be otiose even if the rules were fatuous.

“GURPS: lets you play anything except a householder with investments.”

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Rupert

That doesn't alter how it's supposed to go if the player just wants to buy II (or Wealth, Reputation, etc.) - they need an in-game justification. For II that would surely involve taking some money that their character has and investing it.

The character absolutely don't need investing money for II. It is a possible explanation, but so are :

-The character is unemployed and the state pay him his old salary (granted, it is usually only for a limited duration, but maybe the player hacked social security ?) or unemployment benefit

-The character touch a pension (and he could even have retired very young on disability)

-The character rich relative send him money every month (could also apply for university student that get a monthly allowance from their parents)

-The character won at the lottery and will get €2.000 every month until his death. (ok, technically it come from money invested in the winner name, afaik.)

-The character helped an ancient goddess and she rain a bucket of precious gems on him from time to time.

-The character is insanely lucky and find lost money lying everywhere. It average to xxx monthly.

-The character receive royalties for a previous work

-...

Basically, II is
"I receive X money every month without doing anything.
If it come from invested money, it assumes that you cannot or will not invade your capital."
Nothing more, nothing less.