Question about spears

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

How is it a red herring? The relevant sentence from the perk description:
"For instance, you could start your turn using a spear with the Staff skill, switch to the Spear skill to attack, and then return to Staff for parrying."
If what you're saying is correct, there wouldn't be any benefit at all to actually doing that.

I didn't mean the phrase to be offensive of dismissive. I just mean it's not what determines the answer to the question.

Your point is a good one that the Form Mastery perk appears to do nothing.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I didn't mean the phrase to be offensive of dismissive. I just mean it's not what determines the answer to the question.

Your point is a good one that the Form Mastery perk appears to do nothing.

Or it actually does do what the text suggests it can. That's what the other posts that have been linked upthread seem to say.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Or it actually does do what the text suggests it can. That's what the other posts that have been linked upthread seem to say.

The text says it lets you change the skill you are using a spear with as a free action. Yes, it does that. It doesn't say you can use a spear as if it was a staff, hence your question.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

The text says it lets you change the skill you are using a spear with as a free action. Yes, it does that. It doesn't say you can use a spear as if it was a staff, hence your question.

I mean, it explicitly mentions doing it for the purpose of parrying. The implication is clearly there. And with the Kromm quotes linked in this thread, I'm pretty sure it does in fact give the benefits you'd expect from treating it as a staff.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

I mean, it explicitly mentions doing it for the purpose of parrying. The implication is clearly there. And with the Kromm quotes linked in this thread, I'm pretty sure it does in fact give the benefits you'd expect from treating it as a staff.

Yes, you are right. I just tuned in to the fact that Staff parrying is a property of the skill. But I think any other properties of using a staff (e.g. Swing damage) would not have the same treatment.

Edit: Otherwise, what difference is there between Grip Mastery and Form Mastery?

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Yes, you are right. I just tuned in to the fact that Staff parrying is a property of the skill. But I think any other properties of using a staff (e.g. Swing damage) would not have the same treatment.

Edit: Otherwise, what difference is there between Grip Mastery and Form Mastery?

As per Kromm:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...14&postcount=9

Form Mastery reflects real-world styles that use distinct grips that GURPS would call "staff" and "spear" grips. Weapon Adaptation, on the other hand, represents real-world styles that use unorthodox weapons for a particular GURPS skill and never teach what GURPS considers the orthodox skill/weapon matchup. It's a judgment call, and the perks are similar in some ways, but there are both real-world and game-mechanical differences.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Farmer

As per Kromm:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...14&postcount=9

Yeah, I don't know what he means by that.

[acrosome]

The really easy solution is to give the character the Weapon Adaptation (Spear to Staff skill) perk from Martial Arts. Voila, a spear works just like a staff.

Weapon Adaptation is actually pretty powerful for a 1-point perk. (Not unlike combining Signature Gear with Weapon Bond- I mean, why wouldn't you? They're 1 point each.) The builds can get pretty fun, as in this old post:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=28

I kind of disagree with this, though:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

In my interpretation, the ability to use a spear with Staff skill, in the absence of more specifics, simply means that Staff skill will allow you to use a spear as a spear at your Staff skill level. You are still using a spear, and the rules for using a spear are the ones that apply.

I think of Staff skill as a sort of higher-order almost-chambara-style Spear skill. Spear skill is for a hoplite who was taught how to jam the pointy bit into the guy in front of him, whereas Staff skill is how a martial artist in a Jackie Chan movie a uses a spear- they parry and do other fun stuff with it. So a spear can also be used with Staff skill and get all of the Staff specialness such as the parry bonus. However, by 4E RAW I think that you can use Spear skill one-handed, whereas you cannot with Staff skill.

All of which reminds me that we have to add that to the proposed 5E changes: remove the special Staff defensive bonus and just formalize Defensive Grip. Heck, then you might be able to do away with Spear skill and just say that spears use Staff skill. Simplification is good, in this instance.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by acrosome

The really easy solution is to give the character the Weapon Adaptation (Spear to Staff skill) perk from Martial Arts. Voila, a spear works just like a staff.

Note that this only lets you use a spear with the Staff skill when you're wielding the spear in both hands.

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by acrosome

The really easy solution is to give the character the Weapon Adaptation (Spear to Staff skill) perk from Martial Arts. Voila, a spear works just like a staff.

Weapon Adaptation is actually pretty powerful for a 1-point perk. (Not unlike combining Signature Gear with Weapon Bond- I mean, why wouldn't you? They're 1 point each.) The builds can get pretty fun, as in this old post:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=28

I kind of disagree with this, though:



I think of Staff skill as a sort of higher-order almost-chambara-style Spear skill. Spear skill is for a hoplite who was taught how to jam the pointy bit into the guy in front of him, whereas Staff skill is how a martial artist in a Jackie Chan movie a uses a spear- they parry and do other fun stuff with it. So a spear can also be used with Staff skill and get all of the Staff specialness such as the parry bonus. However, by 4E RAW I think that you can use Spear skill one-handed, whereas you cannot with Staff skill.

All of which reminds me that we have to add that to the proposed 5E changes: remove the special Staff defensive bonus and just formalize Defensive Grip. Heck, then you might be able to do away with Spear skill and just say that spears use Staff skill. Simplification is good, in this instance.

The problem is that base GURPS Spear hasn't the very same balance of base GURPS Quarterstaff and lacks End Caps.

In GURPS, base Spear is a 3 lbs. pole having Reach 1, 2 with a 1 lb. tip on one of its extremities; while base Quarterstaff is a 3 lbs. pole with Reach 1, 2 having a total of 1 lb. in end caps equally distributed on both of its extremities. So using a Spear like a Quarterstaff would result in -1 cr damage for swing and thrusts like a Quarterstaff without End Caps (unless the Spear has a Blunt Butt Spike or End Caps as well) and the Parry should be +1, not +2 like a perfectly balanced Quarterstaff.

IMO, the Parry +2 for staves is due for both their balance and their great parrying surface. Dueling polearms do have in fact a parrying surface comparable to that of staves, but when they're used with the Staff skill they have Parry 0 for thrusts and Parry 0U for swings, not Parry +2, and that's because of their balance. Speaking of balance, spears come midway between staves (point of balance in the center) and dueling polearms (point of balance markedly toward one extremity), so IMO they should have Parry +1 when they are used with Staff skill, not Parry +2.