Question about spears

[awesomenessofme1]

The description of the Form Mastery perk in Power-Ups 2: Perks says that spears can be used with the Staff skill with at least the implication that you could use the relevant parry bonus as well. But I can't find any rules for using a spear with Staff. Some stuff about polearms, but not spears. I've looked in the Basic Set and Low-Tech.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

The description of the Form Mastery perk in Power-Ups 2: Perks says that spears can be used with the Staff skill with at least the implication that you could use the relevant parry bonus as well. But I can't find any rules for using a spear with Staff. Some stuff about polearms, but not spears. I've looked in the Basic Set and Low-Tech.

The time I used it I had Form Mastery to have the ability to switch which skill I was using weapon with as a 'free action' IIRC without said perk you would select on your turn whether you are using weapon as either a Staff or a Spear and be locked into that skill until your next turn when you would have the option to change skill in use. I also had Grip Mastery to make moving from 1 hex to 2 hex grip a similar 'free action' (no Ready Maneuver required).

Also since Spear and Staff cross default at -2 you might wish to do as I and pick one to be 'primary' and default the 'secondary' from that. Then you can use the buying up from default rules to raise the secondary up. (I went looking for said rule and could not seem to locate. IF someone has a page ref I would apricate as I might be misplacing as a houserule or a legacy from editions I-III).

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

The description of the Form Mastery perk in Power-Ups 2: Perks says that spears can be used with the Staff skill with at least the implication that you could use the relevant parry bonus as well. But I can't find any rules for using a spear with Staff. Some stuff about polearms, but not spears. I've looked in the Basic Set and Low-Tech.

In my campaigns I use this template for a Spear used with the Staff skill:
- Damage sw+1 cr / Reach 1, 2 / Parry +1 / ST 8† / Notes Blunt pole.
- Damage thr+1 cr / Reach 1, 2 / Parry +1 / ST 8† / Notes Blunt tip.

Basically, it's like a Quartestaff but you get -1 damage because the lack of end caps (see Flanges, Spikes, or End Caps, Low-Tech Companion 2, p. 14), plus -1 Parry (Parry +1 instead of Parry +2) and +1 ST because unlike the Quartestaff the center of balance of a Spear isn't placed at its middle lenght, it is nearer to the weapon's point. Adding a Blunt Butt Spike (see Butt Spike, Low-Tech Companion 2, p. 14) gives +1 to crushing damage but -2 to ranged attacks at +$10; other stats are unchanged. Adding a Butt Spike gives thrust impaling damage equal to weapon's damage-1 but also gives -2 to ranged attacks at +$20; other stats are unchanged. Adding End Caps gives +1 crushing damage (not cumulable with Blunt Butt Spike) at +$5 and +1 lb. and the required ST for the weapon beign used with Spear and Staff skills is raised by 1 due to the increase in weight; other stats are unchanged.

Applying the same principles, I use this template for a Long Spear used with the Staff skill (based on Long Staff):
- Damage sw+1 cr / Reach 2, 3 / Parry +1 / ST 10† / Notes Blunt pole.
- Damage thr+1 cr / Reach 2, 3 / Parry +1 / ST 10† / Notes Blunt tip.
In this case there is no increase in required ST because it can't be higher than the ST required for Spear skill use.

A Heavy Spear used with the Staff skill (based on Long Staff):
- Damage sw+1 cr / Reach 2, 3 / Parry +0U / ST 11† / Notes Blunt pole.
- Damage thr+1 cr / Reach 2, 3 / Parry +0 / ST 11† / Notes Blunt tip.
Here Parry becomes 0U for swings and 0 for thrusts (like Dueling Polearms) because the weapon is unbalanced even when it's wielded with both hands.

A Short Spear or Javelin used with the Staff skill (based on Jo):
- Damage sw cr / Reach 1 / Parry +1 / ST 6† / Notes Blunt pole.
- Damage thr cr / Reach 1 / Parry +1 / ST 6† / Notes Blunt tip.
In this case there is no increase in required ST because it can't be higher than the ST required for Spear skill use.

A Trident or a Ox Tongue Spear (see below*) used with the Staff skill (based on Quartestaff):
- Damage sw+1 cr / Reach 1, 2 / Parry +1 / ST 9† / Notes Blunt pole.
- Damage thr+1 cr / Reach 1, 2 / Parry +1 / ST 9† / Notes Blunt tip.
In this case there the required ST is raised by 2 beacuse the weapon tip is heavier.




* Ox Tongue Spear: basically, a shortened version of a Heavy Spear, having a similar heavy broadhead mounted on a shorter pole (-$20 and -1 lb., like the difference in cost and weight between Long Spear and Spear). It isn't throwable. The given name for the weapon is for game purposes only, it doesn't necessarily reflect a specific weapon from 15th-16th century Europe: these stats are suitable for any spear having an heavy broad point and maximum Reach 2.
- TL 1 / Damage thr+3 imp / Reach 1, 2* / Parry 0U / Cost $70 / Weight 5 lbs. / ST 11
- or: Damage thr+2 cut / Reach 1, 2* / Parry 0U / ST 11 / Notes Tip Slash.
- two hands: Damage thr+4 imp / Reach 2 / Parry 0 / ST 10†
- two hands: Damage thr+3 cut / Reach 2 / Parry 0 / ST 10† / Notes Tip Slash.

Note: IMO the Reach of Spear and Trident used with one hand should be 1, 2*, not 1*, that's why I have given the weapon Reach 1, 2* for one-hand stats.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Also since Spear and Staff cross default at -2 you might wish to do as I and pick one to be 'primary' and default the 'secondary' from that. Then you can use the buying up from default rules to raise the secondary up. (I went looking for said rule and could not seem to locate. IF someone has a page ref I would apricate as I might be misplacing as a houserule or a legacy from editions I-III).

B173, Improving Skills from Default. Note that, for switching between Staff and Spear, if your base skill is at DX+3 [12] or better, it's a trap - getting Staff and Spear to DX+3 would cost [12] for the base skill, [8] for the one you're improving from its default - but if you just spent that [20] on the base skill, you'd have it at DX+5 and the other skill at DX+3.

Personally, my preferred solution to the Spear vs Staff issue is to just merge them into one skill (that is DX/A; conscripts can learn a thrusting-only DX/E variant that lacks the +2 Parry) and have spears function like quarterstaffs when striking with the butt end. If not wanting to modify the RAW, Weapon Adaptation: Spear to Staff will let you use at least one spear-type weapon with the Staff skill, which should let the +2 to Parry apply as well. The GM might decide you still need Form Mastery to be able to freely switch between using the weapon like a spear and using it like a staff, of course.

An alternative option is to let spears be used with Staff, but at -1 to damage (rather than -2 to skill), to account for a "staff grip" being less effective for thrusting than a "spear grip."

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Varyon

B173, Improving Skills from Default. Note that, for switching between Staff and Spear, if your base skill is at DX+3 [12] or better, it's a trap - getting Staff and Spear to DX+3 would cost [12] for the base skill, [8] for the one you're improving from its default - but if you just spent that [20] on the base skill, you'd have it at DX+5 and the other skill at DX+3.

Personally, my preferred solution to the Spear vs Staff issue is to just merge them into one skill (that is DX/A; conscripts can learn a thrusting-only DX/E variant that lacks the +2 Parry) and have spears function like quarterstaffs when striking with the butt end. If not wanting to modify the RAW, Weapon Adaptation: Spear to Staff will let you use at least one spear-type weapon with the Staff skill, which should let the +2 to Parry apply as well. The GM might decide you still need Form Mastery to be able to freely switch between using the weapon like a spear and using it like a staff, of course.

An alternative option is to let spears be used with Staff, but at -1 to damage (rather than -2 to skill), to account for a "staff grip" being less effective for thrusting than a "spear grip."

Another option is to treat weapon defaults as techniques (or you could make this an option with a perk on a case-by-case basis):

Spear (DX/A) DX+2 [8]
Extra Option: Weapon Default as Technique [1]
Staff (DX/A, Spear Hard Technique) DX+2 [3]

In other words, for 4 points, these two skills become a single skill. I think this makes a good balance between eliminating the granularity of GURPS weapon skills and the problems created by the weapon skill defaults.

[Donny Brook]

Form Mastery is a bit of a red herring in this question. All it does is permit skill-switching as a free action.

The question (what are the rules for using a spear with Staff skill) stands apart from Form Mastery.

In my interpretation, the ability to use a spear with Staff skill, in the absence of more specifics, simply means that Staff skill will allow you to use a spear as a spear at your Staff skill level. You are still using a spear, and the rules for using a spear are the ones that apply.

If you want to use Staff skill to use your spear as a staff, you need the Weapon Adaptation perk.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Personally, my preferred solution to the Spear vs Staff issue is to just merge them into one skill (that is DX/A; conscripts can learn a thrusting-only DX/E variant that lacks the +2 Parry) and have spears function like quarterstaffs when striking with the butt end.

I expect the determining factor is whether people conceptualize staff fighting as being the Hollywood/Robin Hood style, or the genuine staff fighting style where the wielders grip the staff at one end and use it rather like a sword.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Form Mastery is a bit of a red herring in this question. All it does is permit skill-switching as a free action.

The question (what are the rules for using a spear with Staff skill) stands apart from Form Mastery.

In my interpretation, the ability to use a spear with Staff skill, in the absence of more specifics, simply means that Staff skill will allow you to use a spear as a spear at your Staff skill level. You are still using a spear, and the rules for using a spear are the ones that apply.

If you want to use Staff skill to use your spear as a staff, you need the Weapon Adaptation perk.

How is it a red herring? The relevant sentence from the perk description:
"For instance, you could start your turn using a spear with the Staff skill, switch to the Spear skill to attack, and then return to Staff for parrying."
If what you're saying is correct, there wouldn't be any benefit at all to actually doing that.

[Anaraxes]

Word of Kromm:

Any balanced weapon used with Staff skill gets +2 Parry.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...93&postcount=2

Note that "balanced" here is in the context of a discussion of "U(nbalanced)" parry weapons. It's not a super-subtle point about exactly where the center of gravity is with a spear as opposed to a staff. Neither weapon is U, even if they don't both have the same center of gravity. (The long spear is a U weapon, but is much longer than a staff or spear.)

Kromm on Form Mastery, which post doesn't actually mention the Parry bonus explicitly. But it's perhaps still worth citing for the thread, as he does point out an additional benefit of Form Mastery.

The Form Mastery perk is of note here because it lets you switch quickly to a skill that might not consider changing lengths to be a Ready. For instance, Staff lets you change lengths freely, so if you have Form Mastery (Spear), then you can quickly switch to using your spear with Staff skill, capitalize on free length changes with a staff, and return to using Spear skill. This is legit. It reflects using your spear with the fluid sliding grips normally only trained with the staff. It's why many spear-fighting styles include Staff and this specialty of Form Mastery.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=10

As long as we're here, I might as well note that it's the text of the Spear skill (B208) that grants the +2 bonus, not the Parry column of the spear in the Spear section of the Equipment list. Compare with the quarterstaff entry for 2H Sword, where that same weapon used with 2H Sword skill lacks the +2 Parry note, even though 2H Sword notes that it's only used for "balanced" 2H weapons. The Staff skill trains with those "fluid sliding grips" Kromm mention; 2H Sword doesn't. These differences also suggest that the Parry bonus comes from the skill in use, not the equipment itself, even if this +2 reference is repeated in the equipment tables.

A U weapon like a naginata loses the +2 Parry even when wielded with Staff skill -- due to the U, as Kromm notes above. (B208 doesn't mention the U, though it does mentioned "balanced", if without the italics of the same mention in the 2H Sword text. The adding the U for clarity and the italics for consistency are perhaps the errata if anyone would like to report it.) "Long spear" isn't even listed under Staff at all, presumably due to its length rather than its U, so can't be used with that skill in the first place, leaving the equipment tables moot on this weapon.

[Farmer]

This may be helpful in understand the difference between Form Mastery and Weapon Adaptation:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...14&postcount=9