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Old 01-31-2019, 09:02 AM   #81
RogerBW
 
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazis Across the Multiverse

Hmm. Thinking about production lines of the 1930s and 1940s, I wonder if that's too many types.

Switching production is hard, and the economies of scale are huge, so the more parts commonality you can have the better. Even if you have to give lower-tech weapons to the masses, it'll probably be cheaper to give them the same barrels as the good weapons than to have two different barrel-making lines.

I'd be inclined to think in terms of a single standard calibre, and at most two standard cartridges (the TL6 and the TL5, in effect).
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:02 AM   #82
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Hmm. Thinking about production lines of the 1930s and 1940s, I wonder if that's too many types.
It might be, of course. I have no idea how expensive, in terms of materials and skilled labour, setting up such a production line is.

I note, however, that the ASN were in an excellent position to make off with all the machinery and tooling for numerous TL6 and TL7 weapons. Essentially, the tools and machines that had previously been used to make Panzerbüsche 39 anti-tank rifles and were then used to convert them to Grenatbüsche more or less fell into the hands of one far-sighted SS leader, just as he was starting to consider setting up industry on the first new world, along with the still extant ammunition production for 7.92x94mm rounds.

And in 1944, plants containing former production lines for Czech Gewehr 33 / 40 (t) rifles that had been converted to Karabiner 98k production lines were overseen by another conspirator in on the planning to establish a last redoubt, which put him in a position to start moving any spare machinery and tools that were unused after the conversion and end by stealing the production line in its entirety sometime in the spring of 1945. It also yielded a couple of thousand Gewehr 33 / 40 (t) rifles and plenty of spare parts.

At the end of the war, members of the inner circle of the future Antarctic Space Nazis were both fully aware that there would be a need to preserve the Reich by retreating to another world and in control of production lines making everything from Polish Radom pistols, ERMA MP 40 sub-machineguns and Mauser rifles like the Karabiner 98k, or similar rifles using the same cartridge, to V-2 rockets. Granted, no one considered bringing the rocket part production lines, but the others must have been tempting. There was even a production line for Karabiner 43 (known as Gewehr 43 earlier) just going to waste at the end of the war and the ASNs were in a perfect position to seize it and move it piecemeal over to their otherworldly industrial outpost.

As long as it would be possible to break the production lines into many smaller parts, each no heavier than 400 lbs., there would be little reason not to take those production lines that were under the control of someone in the conspiracy, especially near the end. Hell, just by ordering too many spare parts, someone who controls such an armament plant should be capable of duplicating it on the other world over a period of 12-15 months or so, I should imagine. Though if there are any individual pieces of the machines that weigh tons and absolutely cannot be broken into parts, that makes things substantially more difficult.

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Switching production is hard, and the economies of scale are huge, so the more parts commonality you can have the better. Even if you have to give lower-tech weapons to the masses, it'll probably be cheaper to give them the same barrels as the good weapons than to have two different barrel-making lines.
So would it be cheaper to make 500,000 rifled barrels of the same profile than 100,000 rifled barrels and 400,000 smooth-bore barrels of a different caliber, intended for lower pressures?

I'd think that making rifled barrels of good steel was comparatively hard, but that smoothbore barrels that could be made from lower quality metal were so much simpler that it was worthwhile making a special production line for them.

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I'd be inclined to think in terms of a single standard calibre, and at most two standard cartridges (the TL6 and the TL5, in effect).
How many end users does a cartridge need to have to justify making the effort of maintaining a separate production line?

I expected that the ASNs would run out of chemical precursors eventually and that there would be no end of trouble involved in setting up the capabilities to make their own smokeless powder, primers and even lower-tech percussion caps. I guess I considered making the casings (once they've reloaded all casings they brought with them as often as is safe) and loading them was easy in comparison. I realize that advanced bullet types may give them trouble, especially explosive ammunition requiring fuzing, but is making multiple shapes of lead-alloy projectiles very much harder than making one?

After all, with prepared primers, powder and bullets, I've watched perfectly normal people reload multiple calibers and chamberings at home, using machines that have essentially changed fairly little from TL7 (for that matter, most of it was bought at TL7, in my step-grandfather's case), aside from becoming a bit cheaper, sleeker and more compact and slightly more user friendly. But I may be underestimating the challenges.

In any case, it's plausible that with the stockpiles of Earth-made weapons, the ASN won't require new Mauser barrels in 7.92x57mm until a new generation enters military service. So what they will focus their initial production on will be 11mm Mausers, both weapons and the (black powder) ammunition. They'll also need to make .22 LR ammunition within a couple of years, but they'll try to reload existing cases as long as possible, using black powder, as the round was originally designed.

They'll also want black powder shotgun shells for hunting, but the same principle would apply, try to reload brass cases as much as possible (and possibly switch to paper cartridges for cheaper hunting shotguns). Still need primers, though. And maybe percussion caps for export, though I imagine they could get away with selling simple flintlock trade muskets for at least a generation before their TL3 allies start demanding more advanced weaponry. They'll also try to teach people without highly technical TL7 skills how to make lead bullets for muskets at home and probably want to arrange for some way to have Minié bullets or the technological alternative made by skilled metalworkers (or just handy folk in general) who started at TL3 and are moving upwards in TL, toward maybe TL5.

The ASNs will want to get TL7 ammunition production up within a few years of arriving, however, but will have trouble picking just one cartridge type. The weapons they scrounged up will be chambered in, at the bare minimum, 9x19mm Parabellum, 7.92x33mm Kurz, 7.92x57mm Mauser and 7.92x94mm Patronen. In reality, there are also weapons chambered in 7.65x17mmSR, 7.63x25mm Mauser and 9x17mm Kurz, though these are admittedly not usually viewed as being of vital importance to any military effort. There are also captured weapons chambering such cartridges as the 7.62x25mm Tokarev and 7.62x54mm Russian, which it would be nice to be able to reload for, but that's nowhere near a priority.

And in an ideal world, Antarctic Space Nazis would also want the ability to manufacture 9.3x62mm Mauser, 12.7x70mm Schüler, 14.5x114mm and maybe even a couple of heavy caliber MG or autocannon chamberings that they can make SAPHE. Not to mention that there will inevitably be important people who brought firearms in otther chamberings that they still want to be able to use over the next decades. Granted, it's possible that calibers not considered of much military utility might have existed somewhere in Germany in 1944-1945 in huge stockpiles, but no matter how many cartridges someone brings for his sporting rifle, eventually they'll run out.

That's a wish list for the next fifty years after they arrive, I'll grant. But as much as possible, as soon as possible, will be the guiding principle for the ca 100 engineers, technicians and gunsmiths the ASNs bring and expect to set up an armament industry from the parts they brought from the falling Third Reich.

On the plus side, they'll have access to thousands of slaves and a near infinite supply of more, if they can train the ones they have to do anything useful. On the negative side, the slaves allotted to their work will be TL2-3, which means that they'll have to be taught every technical skill by rote, at least at the beginning.

Quick-witted, coperative slaves with metalworking skills (and sufficiently Aryan features) have the chance of becoming free citizens (albeit second class) and I expect that within a few years, most work that isn't highly complex and demanding a full TL7 education (as opposed to just a narrow subset of skill learned as TL6-7) will be done by such 'civilized' natives, who will outnumber the German-born ASNs within ten years* and be 80% of the free population fifty years after arrival (about the time when my PCs encounter some ASNs).

*That this is possible without revolt is due to the 5,000-10,000 stormtroopers who are neither citizens nor natives, but simply obey the SS leadership without question. They are not counted in the numbers of the free population, but still account for most of the combat power of the ASNs, even fifty years later.
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Old 01-31-2019, 02:16 PM   #83
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I still do not think that you could maintain the technology. Now, 30 million people, a little less than half of wartime Germany, could easily maintain a TL6 civilization. If Germany had stumbled upon the secret in 1936, then the war would have been about gaining the productive capacity to maintain German prosperity while starting a mass immigration to the new world (human populations being present would actually be counterproductive to the colonization of the new world). The Nazis would have still been nasty, but they probably would have been less stupid, and they would have likely not bothered with Poland because they had an entire new world to colonize.

What happens if the Nazis did not invade Poland and invaded Western Europe instead for its productive capacity? France and Britain would have been less prepared, as France and the Lowlands would have been invaded in September of 1939 instead of May of 1940. I am not sure how much difference eight months would have made, but I am sure that it would have likely given the Nazis as even greater edge.
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Old 01-31-2019, 02:56 PM   #84
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... if these wacky Nazis built a settlement intended to be the nucleus of a New Reich on an uninhabited (or at least relatively safe) world somewhere ...
A bit more about their long-term plans would be helpful with technological speculation. Do they simply want to build themselves an empire on Nazi principles? Do they want to return to their home Earth someday and conquer it? Something else?

Instilling classic Nazi motives into new generations will be kind of hard, simply because there are none of the classic Nazi hate figures around. But motivating people to serve an empire isn't too hard, if they gain from it.
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Old 01-31-2019, 03:03 PM   #85
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I still do not think that you could maintain the technology. Now, 30 million people, a little less than half of wartime Germany, could easily maintain a TL6 civilization.
Naturally the ASNs can't maintain the TL7 society they left. Mature TL7 societies have affordable passenger jet travel, automobiles in every driveway, endless manufactured luxuries and an unending stream of entertainment media. Even the pre-War TL6 society they remember had extensive rail infrastructure, passenger air travel, vast autobahns, radio used for entertainment and more affordable knick-nacks for the average citizen than lower TL people could imagine.

It's not a question of maintaining full TL7 in all areas of society. The Antarctic Space Nazis know full well how impossible that would be and some very clever engineers had almost two years to plan how to gear down their technology while building up a new society that will eventually be capable of matching and then exceeding the Third Reich. They have 30,000 tons of supplies from Earth to allow them to set up factories in the most vital industries, primarily small arms and zeppelins, as well as advancing the local economy from TL3 (highest found) to TL5 or so.

Because they were able to bring so much equipment, the ASNs plan and expect to be able to keep their TL7 smallarms in the field with their elite forces, which at the time the PCs meet them will number 1-2% of the total population. They will probably not have heavy weapons, beyond possibly some light support weapons that are easy to make ammunition for, and they won't be mechanized. Essentially, they, like much of the ASN society, will be TL5, with some residual small TL6 and TL7 artifacts that they can still keep in the field.

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If Germany had stumbled upon the secret in 1936, then the war would have been about gaining the productive capacity to maintain German prosperity while starting a mass immigration to the new world (human populations being present would actually be counterproductive to the colonization of the new world). The Nazis would have still been nasty, but they probably would have been less stupid, and they would have likely not bothered with Poland because they had an entire new world to colonize.
But they didn't.

Alternate Histories of WWII on our Earth are a thriving hobby with a lot of support on the Internet. But I'm not really interested in the Earth they left and don't mean to spend time speculating about it. It won't matter to my game in any way, whereas the equipment, history, background and culture of the Antarctic Space Nazis my players will encounter very well might.

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What happens if the Nazis did not invade Poland and invaded Western Europe instead for its productive capacity? France and Britain would have been less prepared, as France and the Lowlands would have been invaded in September of 1939 instead of May of 1940. I am not sure how much difference eight months would have made, but I am sure that it would have likely given the Nazis as even greater edge.
What productive capacity? The exact sequence of events at the start of the war was ridiculously favourable to Germany. Change even one little thing and there is no guarantee that they'll manage to seize many, if at all, industrial areas without extensive battle damage.

Remember, Poland and France collapsing quickly wasn't predictable beforehand. Poland was invaded by the Soviets at the same time, which made resistance impossible. What happened in France might not be replicable if you change even one thing and if it takes any time at all to defeat France, the formiddable Polish military will be in the German's rear.

Equally or more likely than the near-perfect run of luck for Germany in the early days are Stalingrad-esque battles for important cities, which would mean that even if they win, they seize ruins, not productive industrial areas.
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Old 01-31-2019, 03:26 PM   #86
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A bit more about their long-term plans would be helpful with technological speculation. Do they simply want to build themselves an empire on Nazi principles?
On occult Nazi principles, but yeah, essentially.

One unusual thing is that they need a steady stream of battle captives and a constantly growing capacity to generate energy. Basically, the leaders have to keep building power plants (beyond any energy required by their industry) and keep a force of several thousands in the field, eternally raiding new worlds and new lands in those worlds.

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Do they want to return to their home Earth someday and conquer it? Something else?
There's no way back, as far as anyone can tell. They planned to eventually go back, but actually, their mythology insists that their enemies will eventually come to them and their duty is then to be prepared for the Last Battle between East and West, which is conveniently set to be fought near the heart of their power.

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Instilling classic Nazi motives into new generations will be kind of hard, simply because there are none of the classic Nazi hate figures around. But motivating people to serve an empire isn't too hard, if they gain from it.
Well, what might help is Himmler's former inner circle having awesome sorcerous powers and all of them having access to esoteric curative methods, which not only has prevented them from dying from various ailments they had in real life, but seems to keep them hale into their second century of life.

Granted, some of them seem 'alive' only by technical definitions (if they're even that), but others, like Karl-Maria Wiligut, seem healthier and more vital at 129 than he ever was at at half that age. Of course, ol' Weisthor is a sorcerer of immense power these days.

Not to mention that among the 'ordinary' ASNs, the age cohort now in most important positions consists mostly of men who were children of fanatical SS men when they left Earth and were raised in the households of these SS men. The richest, most influential men among the ASNs, not to mention all the men holding any kind of office, are still those born on Earth (even if they mostly crossed as children). Analogies to China and the Long March are optional.

That being said, the society that is coming into being has little in common with Nazi Germany of the 1940s. Yeah, sure, everyone speaks angrily in German and there is a lot of völkisch talk, but by the point my PCs encounter the Antarctic Space Nazis, the children, teens and even the average parents will never have seen Germany, never been on a train, never driven a car and never experienced any of the social factors that led to the rise of Nazism. To the average citizen of the Neues Reich, the SS are a hereditary aristocracy, Der Führer the main tutelary deity of the state cult and they live in an expanding imperial state among less organized tribal 'barbarians', for all that most of them are their cousins a generation or two back.
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Old 01-31-2019, 03:40 PM   #87
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I am not sure if it was luck or just incompetence on the part of the Allies. I doubt that the luck of Germany would have been much different in September 1939 as opposed to May 1940. In fact, it might have been better, as the British Expeditionary Force would have not even deployed if the Germans had invaded France in September 1939. If the Germans had also deployed their submarines against French fleets in September 1939 instead of waiting until May 1940, so much the better, as the French would have been caught off guard. I know that a lot of people talk about Poland having been a potential threat to Germany, but I think that Poland would have been fighting for its life against the USSR.

If the Germans have access to an entire new world, they would not have needed Poland for 'living space', so there would need to be a different trigger for World War II. It would have fit the Nazi mindset for the USSR and Poland to have exhausted themselves fighting each other and to just clean up the mess afterwards. In fact, it would not have been unlikely for the Nazis to supply the Poles with weapons to help them grind down the USSR over a protracted war (I think that the Nazis would have rather had Polish lives wasted fighting the USSR rather than German lives).

In addition, Chamberlain would have been in charge of the British war effort if the Nazis had invaded France and the Lowlands in September of 1939. With France and the Lowlands being invaded before the British even deployed the BEF, Chamberlain may have decided to abandon the continent to the Germans since no British lives had yet been lost to the Germans. While Churchhill would have probably condemned Chamberlain for cowardice, Chamberlain was still quite popular in Britain in 1939, and while the abandonment of the continent would have been quite unpopular, the British, French, and Belgium governments would have been so caught offguard by the German invasion that the British could not really do anything else but abandon the continent.
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Old 01-31-2019, 08:35 PM   #88
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In total, I guess that the Antarctic Space Nazis were able to take with them about 30,000 short tons of machinery, tools, supplies and equipment from 1944-1945 Earth. The castle and surrounding structures were not made by them with mundane methods and are not counted in this total, while raw materials like coal, iron and such come from the industrial sites and are not part of it either. Single items heavier than 400 lbs. would be a major hassle to get through, unless they could fly under their own power and fit through gates that were too small to fit any decent military airplane.

Obviously, taking tools and equipment that makes it easier to make other necessary things would be a priority, but as the planners knew they'd have to survive while they built infrastructure and that it might be decades before they could manufacture many things in the new world, they'd have taken as much of the most vital equipment as they could. That included lots of weapons and ammunitions, I imagine, but also a lot of precursor chemicals and everything necessary to keep those industries judged absolutely critical functioning.

When the 500 SS men and their 500 wives arrived in the Zentrum der neuen Welt, World 1, there were about 125,000 hectares of prime Westphalian-esque farmland waiting for settlers, in perfect conditions to start farms. This would have been in a demiplane with no other people, except the roughly thousand 'Aryan' slaves that were to be developed into good Nazis and maybe a couple of thousand other slaves for ordinary labour. Also another two thousand slaves with little initiative, low IQ, but neither the ability to rebel nor need for food in the traditional sense.

There would also have been a about a thousand stormtroopers (who didn't need food) for keeping the slaves docile and handling the constant influx of new ones, from the ca 3,000 stormtroopers and few dozen special forces warring in Germania Hyperborea, as they call World 2.

World 1 is not actually a whole planet, just a small demiplane, and while it does grow slowly, it is still only about 3,000,000 hectares of prime farmland now (about a 60 mile radius circle around the mystical castle), 50 years later. Once the Antarctic Space Nazis, their new Aryan citizens and their slaves had filled out all of the good farmland on World 1, they'd start setting up farms on Germania Hyperborea, World 2, which is a whole world.

The rest of the stormtroopers and a few hundred Antarctic Space Nazi engineers, technicians and miners would have been engaged in setting up the industrial and resource-excavation site at Jötunheim, World 3 (later on more worlds), along with a few thousand more slaves, some needing food and having intiative, others... not.

The Nazis can trade, actually, but only with a TL3 fantasy society, which we'll call Svartálfrheim, World 4, though the trading partners aren't really elves. The Nazis are, however, fairly firmly allied with their trading partners in Svartálfrheim and have accepted the risks involved in teaching them various TL4 and higher things, though there are certain TL6-7 technologies they will be trying to keep military secrets. Still, that's a society of some hundreds of thousands that they could trade with from the start.
Ok, so the population numbers above exclude minors and other non-contributing people. In other words, the numbers are the able-bodied workers.

Edit: I have been convinced that it makes a whole lot of sense for much of the valuable scientists, engineers, technicians, mechanices and other technical workers sorking under the SS-Wirtschafts-und Verwaltungshauptamt (SS-WVHA) to escape into the new worlds, even if they were not among the chosen eugenic Übermenschen who settled around Wahr Wewelsburg.

Let's try to break down the population figures a bit better, by Worlds:

Settlement (1945 CE or Year 1)
Deutschblütig citizens: 52,100 (39,500 adults)
Artverwandt citizens: 1,000 (0 adults)
Eingedeutschte slaves: 6,500 (2,500 adults)
Hilfswillige slaves: 4,000 (4,000 adults)
Zivilarbeiter slaves: 11,000 (7,000 adults)
Fremdvölkische slaves: 1,000 (1,000 adults)
Kadavergehorsham SS-Sturmmänner: 6,000
Kadavergehorsham slaves: 6,000
Total population: 87,600 (53,100 free, 22,500 slaves, 12,000 Kadaversgehorshamer)

World 1, Zentrum der neuen Welt
SS inner circle: 100
Wahr Wevelsburg HQ staff: 200
Female dependents of SS leadership: 100
Minor dependends of SS leadership: 100
SS men (TL6-7): 500
Hausfrauen (TL6-7): 500
Helferinen (TL7): 1,000
Kinder (TL7): 6,100
'Aryan' native men (TL2): 100
'Aryan' native women (TL2): 900
'Aryan' native children (TL2-3): 1,000
'Mediterranean' slave men (TL3): 1,000
'Mediterranean' slave women (TL3): 1,000
'Mediterranean' slave children (TL3): 2,000
Kadavergehorsham SS-Sturmmänner (TL6): 1,000
Kadavergehorsham slaves (TL1-2): 2,000
Total population: 17,600 (9,600 free, 5,000 slaves, 3,000 Kadaversgehorshamer)

World 2, Germania Hyperborea
SS elite leadership and soldiers (TL7): 1,000
German experts and technicians (TL7): 20,000
Hausfrauen (TL6-7): 10,000
Kinder (TL7): 5,000
'Aryan' native men (TL2): 1,000
'Aryan' native women (TL2): 3,000
'Aryan' native children (TL2): 3,000
Various slave men (TL1-3): 1,000
Various slave women (TL1-3): 1,000
Various slave children (TL1-3): 1,000
Kadavergehorsham SS-Sturmmänner (TL6): 3,000
Kadavergehorsham slaves (TL1-2): 2,000
Total population: 51,000 (36,000 free, 10,000 slaves, 5,000 Kadaversgehorshamer)

World 3, Jötunheimr
SS elite leadership and soldiers (TL7): 1,000
German experts and technicians (TL7): 5,000
Hausfrauen (TL6-7): 1,000
Kinder (TL7): 500
'Aryan' native men (TL3): 500
'Aryan' native women (TL3): 1,000
'Aryan' native children (TL3): 1,000
'Mediterranean' slave men (TL3-4): 1,000
'Mediterranean' slave women (TL3-4): 1,000
'Mediterranean' slave children (TL3-4): 500
Various slave men (TL2-3): 1,000
Various slave women (TL2-3): 1,000
Various slave children (TL2-3): 500
Kadaversgehorsham SS-Sturmmänner (TL6): 2,000
Kadaversgehorsham slaves (TL1-3): 2,000
Total population: 19,000 (7,500 free, 7,500 slaves, 4,000 Kadaversgehorshamer)

----

Current Time (Year 51)
Deutschblütig citizens: 500,000 (200,000 adults)
Artverwandt citizens: 1,500,000 (600,000 adults)
Eingedeutschte slaves: 500,000 (200,000 adults)
Hilfswillige slaves: 100,000 (50,000 adults)
Zivilarbeiter slaves: 1,000,000 (500,000 adults)
Fremdvölkische slaves: 200,000 (100,000 adults)
Kadaversgehorsham SS-Sturmmänner: 10,000
Kadaversgehorsham slaves: 200,000
Total population: 4,010,000 (2,000,000 free, 1,800,000 slaves, 210,000 Kadaversgehorshamer)

World 1, Zentrum der neuen Welt
SS men (TL6-7): 10,000
Hausfrauen (TL6-7): 10,000
Helferinen (TL7): 25,000
Kinder (TL6-7): 165,000
'Aryan' native men (TL5-6): 50,000
'Aryan' native women (TL5-6): 50,000
'Aryan' native children (TL5-6): 250,000
Various slave men (TL5-6): 10,000
Various slave women (TL5-6): 10,000
Various slave children (TL5-6): 10,000
Kadaversgehorsham SS-Sturmmänner (TL6): 1,000
Kadaversgehorsham slaves (TL1-3): 2,000
Total population: 593,000 (385,000 free, 205,000 slaves, 3,000 Kadaversgehorshamer)

World 2, Germania Hyperborea
SS men (TL7): 1,000
Deutschblütig experts and technicians (TL7): 6,000
Wehrbauer (TL6): 51,000
Hausfrauen (TL6-7): 60,000
Kinder (TL6-7): 110,000
Treckbauer (TL5-6): 5,000
Treckfrauen (TL5-6): 5,000
Treckkinder (TL5-6): 15,000
'Aryan' native men (TL4-6): 200,000
'Aryan' native women (TL4-6): 200,000
'Aryan' native children (TL5-6): 600,000
Various slave men (TL3-5): 150,000
Various slave women (TL3-5): 150,000
Various slave children (TL4-5): 360,000
Kadaversgehorsham SS-Sturmmänner (TL6): 3,000
Kadaversgehorsham slaves (TL1-3): 50,000
Total population: 1,966,000 (1,003,000 free, 910,000 slaves, 53,000 Kadaversgehorshamer)

World 3, Jötunheimr
SS men (TL7): 1,000
Deutschblütig experts and technicians (TL7): 46,000
Hausfrauen und Helferinen (TL7): 15,000
Kinder (TL7): 10,000
'Aryan' native men (TL5-6): 110,000
'Aryan' native women (TL5-6): 125,000
'Aryan' native children (TL6): 400,000
Various slave men (TL5-6): 125,000
Various slave women (TL5-6): 125,000
Various slave children (TL5-6): 250,000
Kadaversgehorsham SS-Sturmmänner (TL6-7): 3,000
Kadaversgehorsham slaves (TL1-3): 130,000
Total population: 1,340,000 (534,000 free, 662,500 slaves, 133,000 Kadaversgehorshamer)

Other Worlds
SS men (TL7): 3,000
Deutschblütig experts and technicians (TL7): 2,000
'Aryan' native men (TL5-6): 10,000
'Aryan' native women (TL5-6): 5,000
Various slaves (TL5-6): 20,000
Kadaversgehorsham SS-Sturmmänner (TL6-7): 3,000
Kadaversgehorsham slaves (TL1-3): 18,000
Total population: 61,000 (12,500 free, 27,500 slaves, 21,000 Kadaversgehorshamer)
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Old 01-31-2019, 09:17 PM   #89
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Not enough people to support TL5. You need a minimum population of around 10 million. At best, they could support TL4.
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Old 01-31-2019, 09:48 PM   #90
Icelander
 
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazis Across the Multiverse

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Not enough people to support TL5. You need a minimum population of around 10 million. At best, they could support TL4.
Based on what?

You realize that a lot of real societies have supported TL4 and higher with lower populations and only fairly limited tonnage of trade with others? 30,000 short tons of finished TL7 goods represents a lot more than the GDP of Iceland for a very long time in the 19th century and we were still TL5 in places. 30,000 short tons could be GURPS $1,000,000,000+ of TL7 goods and tools to make more. Each settler is bringing many orders of magnitude the capital assets that homesteaders brought into the American frontier, where they still managed to use TL5 skills and even reach TL6 eventually. And yes, they got trade goods from back East and elsewhere, but it's not like the typical 19th century homesteader was getting expensive, finished technological devices by the ton.

Keep in mind that building the full suite of technology of a society is also not the same as preserving knowledge from a higher TL. In fifty years, the children who grew up with TL7 parents and had TL7 textbooks in school, not to mention inherited several times their weight in TL7 technology, which they worked with from childhood, are not going to magically forget that knowledge. Someone with TL7 skills is TL7, even if they are presently choosing to focus all surplus resources on building power plants and supplying raiding parties with the highest tech they can and thus have little left for making other infrastructure or consumer luxuries of TL7.

In any case, the average TL in the ASN society is TL4. The infrastructure is TL4^, with no rail travel or automobiles, but magical travel with the World Tree. None of which changes the fact that there are still a lot of TL5-7 gadgets around and knowledge of how to use them, repair them and even replace them is fairly widespread among the elite of the society.

And note also that the locals who were TL2-3 two generations ago are not merely going to stay in stasis. Being born at a lower TL in no way prevents acquiring higher TL skills with experience. And the TL 2 tribes in the north have been getting two generations of expensive education in warfare, as well as trade. This means knowledge of TL3, TL4 and even TL5 concepts has inevitably filtered down to them. And the TL3 societies in the southeast are starting to look very TL4, although they still struggle to make decent black powder for captured firearms.
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Last edited by Icelander; 01-31-2019 at 09:57 PM.
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antarctic space nazis, bootstrap, industry, ken hite, national socialists, nazis, space nazis, suppressed transmission, weird war ii

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