Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-03-2009, 11:52 AM   #51
SuedodeuS
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Default Re: Instant Counterattack

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenclary
The opening is small, probably only a real opening to one direction (the one you're about to attack through), and is only going to be noticed by you, the person who created it. Some other attacker with ETS might be able to notice it, and someone with ETS and ATR might be able to see it and take advantage of it. (The mecahnics don't really support someone with ATR being able to exploit other people's Parries, but I can hardly call that a shortcoming of Riposte or Counterattack.)
I can't think of a way to have an opening that can only be exploited from one angle and yet lasts long enough that the person can defend him or herself from other attacks. In addition, the fact that more than just Parry is penalized implies that the enemy is in some sort of stance that isn't very good for defense in general, meaning he or she should be suffering a penalty to defense from everyone. If it were only Parry, I could explain it as the weapon not being in the correct position to mount an effective defense against an attack from the defender's direction. There are some issues with this (so, you can defend perfectly well against attacks from the front-right and front-left, but not attacks from front-and-center?), but it could be workable. Of course, a Riposte/Counterattack isn't something where all that's wrong is the weapon is out of plane to defend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenclary
GURPS has a different mechanic for making a big, everyone-in-the-theater-audience-can-see-it opening that any other attacker can take advantage of: Beat, which uses a ST-based contest.
Beat represents knocking the enemy's weapon out of plane to defend, thus it only penalizes Parry. Note that, when the weapon isn't in position to defend, the character suffers a penalty to all Parries. A Beat against Dodge apparently represents knocking your enemy a bit off-balance, such that he can't maneuver his legs as quickly but can still use weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenclary
_Or_ the Riposte created a longer window of opportunity, since it was a purposeful one. It is not so much "faster" that you get to mess with the turn order (even ATR doesn't allow that, for the most part).
So, you've managed to open the enemy up to attack as part of parrying his weapon, and you've managed to make him stay open for a decent time period, but it's physically impossible for anyone else to exploit this? That doesn't make any sense. If you've taken his weapon out of line to parry (which is what a GURPS Riposte represents), you have some control over it, meaning it should be difficult for him to parry anything during the window of opportunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenclary
Yes, that's what I'm getting at, though I don't think the shortness of time is short enough to be "instant."
I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying you are the only one in position to exploit it and it's rather brief - I'm saying you are the only one in position to exploit it because it's rather brief. Put simply, anytime someone attacks, he leaves himself open for a very brief period of time. In the case of an outright miss, this is but momentary and fleeting and can only be taken advantage of with something like a Stop Hit. If you avoided the attack (Parry, Dodge, or Block), you are in better position to take advantage of it - thus you may attempt a Counterattack. If you happened to use a Judo Parry, the enemy is close enough (and open enough, as presumably your hand is already in position thanks to the Parry) that you can get in a quick grab-and-takedown - a Judo Throw. If you make an effort to send the enemy's weapon out of line to parry and quickly attack, you may attempt a Riposte.
This period of time is, as noted, very brief. However, the enemy is open - from all angles. If someone else attacks, it is either during this time period - meaning the enemy should suffer a penalty to defend - or it is after this time period - meaning you have already attempted your counter, but the enemy no longer suffers the penalty for being initially open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenclary
I mostly agree there. I'd prefer Riposte be a more generic mechanic. "With a Riposte, you are not required to attack with same weapon you used to Parry" is a simple enough house rule.
... except that isn't what GURPS calls a Riposte. It's more like a DX-based Beat, really, and would be more difficult to pull off than a Riposte, as you'd have to focus on both moving the weapon out of line to Parry and attacking with a different body part. I'd probably require a Wait for something like that - in fact, my Ark Nekris character does something like this, and I've represented it as a Stop-Hit Feint followed by a Counterattack. If you don't want to Wait, penalties comparable to a Dual Weapon Attack would be appropriate.
__________________
Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat.
Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad.
SuedodeuS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2009, 12:44 PM   #52
Agramer
 
Agramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zagreb,Croatia
Default Re: Instant Counterattack

Id like to point few things:

1) GURPS is a system and not full reality simulator
-things are assumed to happen "almost" instantaneously
-all out attack 2 attacks to torso in real world are actually just one attack with big bad cut
-2 parrys + dodge are actually one motion with sword/hand "swinging" in one direction to interpose between attacks while youre moving your body in other(or rotating around one leg to get more distance)
-jumping over/ducking below are Acrobatic dodges (in 99,99 % situations) OR so clumsy "telegraphed" attack that you have easily executed such duck/jump

2) What is parry?

People ,widely, wrongly assume that parry must always "connect" with attacking limb/weapon.

a) It doesnt.Sometimes it is just and dodge with hands/weapon positioned to intercept if needed(look at it "as if weapon gives bonus").

(Video in text is example of "true" parry , other MAs have "softer" variants with "dodge variant" if possible)

In 99% of punching Martial arts(IRL) fighters train "frontal sidestep"(1st technique in video) (on 40th second of video youll see another "entering into parry".See how "deep into arm he is making contact...same is with weapons parry...you dont interpose hand..you move out of plain of attack and deflect hand before attacker connects)as reaction to direct(forward motion only) punch or kick.That "sidestep" aint dodge as would seem.It is parry.Ideally your "parrying" hand wont connect with attackers leg/arm;Usually it does.
That sets you up for unopposed(baring dodge) punch/kick or throw(on extended limb...or tripping due bad balance position(in regard to your position).Also gives penalty to defence of ex-attacker

In essence,what I have described is Riposte(if you look in game turns only).
Though you can call it deceptive attack also(since in GURPS terms you have not exited your hex or if in close combat opponents hex).

Point is that it is "manoeuvre" you use in fight.

You can call it as you wish.

b) Parry is also ,when you "read" kick/punch coming and than you "step into that attack" and receive kick/punch(for 0 dmg) on some body part...it is about leverage and setting your body at right angle with right "surface" to absorb that punch/kick.

Example: receiving kick on your back ,just below that big bone below shoulder(English aint my primary).It is one of toughest muscles on human body and if you "enter into" kick you wont be harmed(though your back will be red after training).
-this is standard exercise in Muay Thai

In GURPS terms,it was parry


c) Attacker missing his attack(as described in raw = automatic defence)
-truth 2 tell ,people dont "miss target" that often ... its more a question of such sloppy execution that you needed slightest of moves to defend vs it.

missing target:
human face: you punch at DX +4 all out attack + 4 stationary target =18 for average person. Not so hard ;)) When target is moving,youre under stress,victim is retreating,numbers change drastically(You have seen high school fights ... how many punches actually did land during time victim was defending himself).

Last edited by Agramer; 08-03-2009 at 01:02 PM.
Agramer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 08:00 PM   #53
SuedodeuS
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Default Re: Instant Counterattack

Sorry about the significant delay on responding (as well as bringing this thread back up), but I somehow hadn't noticed your response until a short while ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
1) GURPS is a system and not full reality simulator
I certainly agree with this statement, but the strength of GURPS is that it's probably closer than any other playable system. Provided it doesn't add too much hassle, I don't see a problem with enhancing its realism a bit in my games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
2) What is parry?

People ,widely, wrongly assume that parry must always "connect" with attacking limb/weapon.

a) It doesnt.Sometimes it is just and dodge with hands/weapon positioned to intercept if needed(look at it "as if weapon gives bonus").
That all depends on how you define a GURPS Parry. Your interpretation makes sense, but primarily for Retreats and Slips (Side or Front). There is still the fact that a hand or weapon (or foot or striker) must be used. Not only is this required by your statement, but GURPS mechanics (which penalize multiple Parries with the same limb) also require it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
In 99% of punching Martial arts(IRL) fighters train "frontal sidestep"(1st technique in video) (on 40th second of video youll see another "entering into parry".See how "deep into arm he is making contact...same is with weapons parry...you dont interpose hand..you move out of plain of attack and deflect hand before attacker connects)as reaction to direct(forward motion only) punch or kick.That "sidestep" aint dodge as would seem.It is parry.Ideally your "parrying" hand wont connect with attackers leg/arm;Usually it does.
That sets you up for unopposed(baring dodge) punch/kick or throw(on extended limb...or tripping due bad balance position(in regard to your position).Also gives penalty to defence of ex-attacker

In essence,what I have described is Riposte(if you look in game turns only).
Though you can call it deceptive attack also(since in GURPS terms you have not exited your hex or if in close combat opponents hex).

Point is that it is "manoeuvre" you use in fight.

You can call it as you wish.
Most of what's being done look like Counterattacks, or potentially "stop hit feints." Stepping into or to the side of an attack is a slip or sideslip in GURPS terms (function like Retreats, but lesser bonus). Does the initial attacker look like he'd be able to defend himself very well were he attacked by someone else during the window between the defender's parry and counter? Things are done in slow-motion by the actors, but the mechanics look real, and it's clear he wouldn't be in any position to defend. Rather than penalizing his defense until the defender counters (which wouldn't be very fair), I'd rather just let the defender take his turn a little early.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
b) Parry is also ,when you "read" kick/punch coming and than you "step into that attack" and receive kick/punch(for 0 dmg) on some body part...it is about leverage and setting your body at right angle with right "surface" to absorb that punch/kick.

Example: receiving kick on your back ,just below that big bone below shoulder(English aint my primary).It is one of toughest muscles on human body and if you "enter into" kick you wont be harmed(though your back will be red after training).
-this is standard exercise in Muay Thai

In GURPS terms,it was parry
Those are rather difficult actions to emulate in a game, but I think you're right in that Parry is the closest fit*. Even so, even if this allows individuals trained to take hits in this manner to reliably defend themselves against unarmed attackers during the "window" yet still be open to the person who made said window (this seems rather unlikely), it still doesn't deal with the issue of armed combat. Taking a sword hit to that muscle is a good way to sever the muscle, not absorb the blow.

*Actually, this seems specific enough to be a Perk, as it probably isn't something one can pull off without special training. In fact, it's essentially a realistic version of Cotton Stomach - just remove the ability to do a follow-up grapple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agramer View Post
c) Attacker missing his attack(as described in raw = automatic defence)
<snip>
People do indeed miss their target outright. I've done it several times when sparring, particularly when I try to pull a quick attack (Deceptive Attack... or at my skill level, not Telegraphing) or strike more than once (Rapid Strike). I've seen those who are more skilled than I do it as well (again, generally when they're doing what GURPS calls Deceptive Attacks and Rapid Strikes). Note that there is no bonus for attacking a stationary target - your hit chance is all from Evaluate, All-Out Attack, and Telegraphic Attack.

I would like to thank you for your comments, as well as linking that video. Having seen what I previously defined as "stop hit feints" being done by (what I assume are) professionals, I realize they really are just Counterattacks. I guess Ark's tactic is normally to use All Out Defense (Improved Parry), rather than Wait.


Now, because bringing this topic back from the dead just to respond to a previous post would be vain and ultimately fruitless, I'm also going to post what I mentioned earlier - attacking without setup. Stay tuned! (or, you know, scroll down, as I'm not posting this until I'm done writing that)
__________________
Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat.
Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad.
SuedodeuS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 08:01 PM   #54
SuedodeuS
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Default Re: Instant Counterattack

Sudden Strike - This is the action of attacking without any sort of proper setup, and is an option for Extra Effort. Make an attack at -12. This can be done at any time during a round, and functions as though a Wait were activated. Although the attack has exceptional speed, it does not impose a defense penalty (the ridiculous speed is canceled out by the fact that it's clumsy enough to be avoided relatively easily). Using Sudden Strike waives your next action - when your turn comes up, you are simply skipped over. There are several special considerations.

TbaM/WM: Having either (or both) of these advantages decreases the penalty to -9. Although those with these Advantages are more prone to Sudden Strikes (particularly against lesser foes), they are generally better off using Rapid Strike.

Stop-Hit: Sudden Strike is most generally used to allow a Stop-Hit without a Wait. This is only useful against foes you clearly outclass, as the penalty applies fully to determining who "wins" the Stop-Hit. However, if you have TbaM or WM and your foe does not, consider the penalty as -6 (but only for determining who wins, not if you hit).

Counterattack, Judo Throw, Riposte: These are special options for Sudden Strike, and rely on the enemy to do your setup for you. Follow the normal rules for these maneuvers, but resolve the attack immediately following a successful defense. Also, the following considerations for Sudden Strike apply to these maneuvers as well.

Defense modifiers: If a previous maneuver gave you a 1-round defense bonus (Defensive Attack), you lose it upon making the Sudden Strike. If a previous maneuver gave you a 1-round defense malus (Committed Attack), you cannot use Sudden Strike*. If you use Sudden Strike with a maneuver that gives you a defense bonus, you do not gain the bonus until your turn would have normally occurred (it takes a moment to properly recover from using a Sudden Strike). If you use a Sudden Strike with a maneuver that gives you a defense malus, however, it applies immediately and is not removed until you take another maneuver.
*There could be a Perk available to overcome this, wherein you can take the same maneuver (or a worse one, like AoA following Committed Attack) again to be able to pull off the Sudden Strike

Moving out of turn: Any movement offered by the Maneuver used for the Sudden Strike does not occur until your turn would have normally come around. Note that, as Stop-Hit involves a defense, you may make a step as part of the defense (as per Retreating and Slips).

Interruption: You make the Sudden Strike immediately, interrupting your opponent's maneuver. The only exception is that you cannot Sudden Strike if your opponent is attacking (or has just attacked) and has another attack aimed at you in "queue" - he's attacking too quickly for you to do anything without taking additional penalty. So, if the enemy uses Rapid Strike, attacking you twice, and then Stepping away, you can Sudden Strike after (or even during) the second attack but before the Step. If he instead used Rapid Strike to attack you once, and then attack someone else once, you can Sudden Strike after (or during) the first attack but before the second. A further exception (in cinematic campaigns, at least) is that you can Sudden Strike between (or during) hits in a Rapid Strike... provided you also use a Rapid Strike. You suffer a penalty as though you were using as many strikes as your foe has remaining (plus one for the one you just avoided).
*Example: Tokiya is against a foe who throws a 4-hit Rapid Strike. He opts to simply parry the first. After parrying the second, he decides to dish out some pain. He must take a 3-hit Rapid Strike in order to use Sudden Strike now. Because he's attacking after the enemy attacks, he's using Counterattack. He does so and attacks his enemy, cutting a deep gash in his foe's chest. He easily parries the sloppy (thanks to the shock penalty) third attack and follows it up with a thrust through his foe's right lung. Barely standing (significant shock penalty, but made the HT check against knockdown/stunning), his opponent makes an extremely clumsy swing that misses Tokiya outright. As he did not defend against the last attack, he can't Counterattack it - that additional -6 (actually -3 due to Weapon Master) he took availed him nothing. A generous GM might allow him to take the attack (without getting the bonus for a Counterattack) on his normal turn, however.

Rapid Strike: Even if the enemy isn't doing a Rapid Strike or similar, you may opt to use Rapid Strike yourself as part of Sudden Strike. You suffer penalties as normal. You may also opt to "queue" additional strikes to allow you to do Sudden Strike later in the round - you must determine how many to queue as soon as you take your first attack, you cannot add to this number, and you suffer the Rapid Strike penalty for this number of attacks. You do not lose these when your normal (skipped) turn comes around, but any that are unspent are lost when your next turn does. You can attempt a Counterattack, Riposte, or Judo Throw as part of this; however, you still suffer the basic -12 to your attack (meaning -17 in the case of untrained Counterattack).
*Example: We have Tokiya again, armed with his sword, this time up against 4 thugs - one armed with a shortsword, two armed with knives, and a sumotori to round things off. Tokiya is adjacent to one knife fighter, the other is two hexes away, the shortswordsman is a bit further off, and the sumotori is 5 hexes away. On his turn, he cuts through one knife-wielder's throat, dropping him, and Steps toward the group (ending up adjacent to the other knife-wielder). The knife-wielder steps into Close Combat to thrust with his knife, but Tokiya makes a Sudden Strike Stop-Hit. With three enemies left, one attack for each seems like a good idea, so he's going to suffer -9 for Rapid Strike (Weapon Master). Combined with the -9 for Sudden Strike, he's attacking at a whopping -18 penalty - but that's nothing against a group of unskilled thugs. He wins the stop-hit and easily cuts into his enemy's torso and deflects the meager attack, dropping the thug. The sumotori charges, so Moriya quickly makes a stop thrust to his vitals. The shock causes the Slam to miss outright, but the sumotori is still standing. Even with this skill, the last thing Moriya wants is to get up-close and personal with an enemy that outweights him several times over - he uses his last Sudden Strike to twist and rip out the blade, thus dropping the sumotori. The last knife-fighter decides now might be a good time to run the hell away.

Extra Attack and ATR: When using Sudden Strike, characters with Extra Attack automatically have one Sudden Strike queued (the one granted by the Extra Attack) at no additional penalty. For characters with ATR, they may "cash in" their extra Maneuver(s) early, resetting any Rapid Strike penalties, or simply wait until their proper turn and take any remaining Maneuvers.

Defense penalties: Some active defenses (or all of them, if using one of the optional rules from Martial Arts) suffer a penalty based on how much they've been used this turn. Penalties remain until your normal (skipped) turn comes up, at which point they reset.
__________________
Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat.
Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad.
SuedodeuS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
counterattack, judo throw

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.