Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

[Sindri]

A common thing in fiction is the use of injection of liquids or exposure to gases that cause sleep and/or paralysis safely. Even with nods to realism one sometimes encounters such as incapacitation being delayed some seconds or in some cases more when in combat and variable resistance making some people require larger doses and some react badly to it this is... challenging, to say the least, to realistically produce with modern technology.

So let's see how close we can get with ultratech. Ultratech has a few examples under Weaponry with sleep gas, paralysis gas and sleep poison and a couple more under Medical and Biotech with morphazine and possibly torpine. Biotech adds another version of torpine. What do people think of their realism?

Sleep gas is probably the winner here even though it isn't the highest TL option. What's a reasonable improvement for TL 9 things at TL 10? Or TL 9 or TL 10 things at TL 11 for that matter?

[Flyndaran]

People are different, biochemically as well as psychologically. I don't think anything short of some super complex self adjusting "smart" drug or nano-machine (to use the buzz word in vogue now) would ever be safe for every human.
But why not have that be what UT layman merely call a drug? It's not like most modern people know the difference between vaccines and inoculations for example.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Sindri

What do people think of their realism?

Sleep gas is probably TL^, paralysis gas is a fairly plausible lethality though improbably fast (in fact, it's nearly unusable -- it will put almost everyone in a coma), and does an excellent job of demonstrating the problem with incapacitating gases: they continue to affect the target after incapacitation has occurred, and if 5s exposure will knock someone out, 60s exposure is 12x the dose and probably fatal.

[Flyndaran]

There are certainly paralysis injectable drugs that work pretty darn instantly. But that whole they can breathe without intubation makes them rather lethal.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Sleep gas is probably TL^, paralysis gas is a fairly plausible lethality though improbably fast (in fact, it's nearly unusable -- it will put almost everyone in a coma), and does an excellent job of demonstrating the problem with incapacitating gases: they continue to affect the target after incapacitation has occurred, and if 5s exposure will knock someone out, 60s exposure is 12x the dose and probably fatal.

True, true. "The dose makes the poison."

You'd need something that breaks down almost instantly, but of course that means the duration will be very short.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

There are certainly paralysis injectable drugs that work pretty darn instantly. But that whole they can breathe without intubation makes them rather lethal.

Get it in the bloodstream or as a gas and it will generally work fairly quickly.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anders

True, true. "The dose makes the poison."

You'd need something that breaks down almost instantly, but of course that means the duration will be very short.

Or you'll need something with sharp diminishing returns. Which seems like another way of saying 'this discovery is very definitely one or two TLs higher than our level' for paralytics and sedatives.

[Anders]

You can do that, actually. If you could design a partial agonist which could be gasified.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Sindri

So let's see how close we can get with ultratech. Ultratech has a few examples under Weaponry with sleep gas, paralysis gas and sleep poison and a couple more under Medical and Biotech with morphazine and possibly torpine. Biotech adds another version of torpine. What do people think of their realism?

Sleep gas is probably the winner here even though it isn't the highest TL option. What's a reasonable improvement for TL 9 things at TL 10? Or TL 9 or TL 10 things at TL 11 for that matter?

Ultra-tech is a surprisingly good book for inventor super-heroes and super-spies, especially the TL 9 stuff. But weird how Sleep Gas is so effective (Failure puts you to sleep) and sleep poison is so much less so (failure just makes you drowsy). That looks like errata to me.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

People are different, biochemically as well as psychologically. I don't think anything short of some super complex self adjusting "smart" drug or nano-machine (to use the buzz word in vogue now) would ever be safe for every human.
But why not have that be what UT layman merely call a drug? It's not like most modern people know the difference between vaccines and inoculations for example.

You'll note I didn't actually say the word drug. Even with dumb drugs, there are degrees of safety and it would be interesting to see what people think about what degree they could be improved.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Sleep gas is probably TL^, paralysis gas is a fairly plausible lethality though improbably fast (in fact, it's nearly unusable -- it will put almost everyone in a coma), and does an excellent job of demonstrating the problem with incapacitating gases: they continue to affect the target after incapacitation has occurred, and if 5s exposure will knock someone out, 60s exposure is 12x the dose and probably fatal.

So what stats would you give a non-^ sleep gas?

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

There are certainly paralysis injectable drugs that work pretty darn instantly. But that whole they can breathe without intubation makes them rather lethal.

Intubation requiring agents could still have niche uses if you can reverse them fast enough. Ideally of course you would combine something with targetted paralysis for the limbs so the respiratory system is unaffected and something else that puts them to sleep.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Ultra-tech is a surprisingly good book for inventor super-heroes and super-spies, especially the TL 9 stuff.

I suppose it is but while I'm mostly inspired by superspy type guys I'm interested in how this would work as a normal ultratech thing.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

But weird how Sleep Gas is so effective (Failure puts you to sleep) and sleep poison is so much less so (failure just makes you drowsy). That looks like errata to me.

I assumed they thought intramuscular injection should be less effective than inhaled gas.

It's unfortunate though, because shooting people with sleep darts is a lot more stylish than using sleep gas.

[Langy]

For a 'realistic' sleep agent, I'd probably do something like this:

If an individual fails their HT roll by ten or more, they suffer a Heart Attack. If they fail their HT roll by five or more, they fall into a Coma. If they fail their HT roll, they fall unconscious for minutes equal to margin of failure, followed by regular sleep. If they succeed by less than five, they are rendered Drowzy for 20-HT minutes and get a -2 penalty to all skill or attribute rolls, except for HT rolls. If they succeed by five or more, the gas has no effect.