Insubstantial

[VadersFear]

Hello guys!

I'm building an Ally for my character who's a ghost.
So he has the insubstancial advantage.
He also has the Affect Substancial advantage.

I interpret the rules as can, not must.
How far is it controllable?

Can he ignore armor and cut just the flesh, can he grab his opponents heart and give it a gentle squeeze?

The first case is very powerful, the second outright evil. Just my taste...

How can you defend from such an attack? Just Dodge?

I'm not talking magic defence, just mundane defences.

I've searched the forum but nothing helpful was displayed.

Greeting Michael!

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by VadersFear

Can he ignore armor and cut just the flesh, can he grab his opponents heart and give it a gentle squeeze?

No unless he takes Cosmic (Irresistible Attack), No unless he takes Affliction (Heart Attack).

[Kromm]

You have to buy Innate Attack or whatever separately, and add the Affects Substantial enhancement to that ability. All the Affect Substantial enhancement to Insubstantiality does is let you have such abilities in the first place. If you want to be a ghost who can ignore armor, you need (1) Insubstantiality (Affect Substantial, +100%), and (2) an attack with not just Affects Substantial, +40% but also Cosmic, Irresistible attack, +300%. It's very expensive. Even if you do have that, active defenses work normally unless you're also invisible and your target can't see it coming; that calls for Invisibility, though you can save a few points with Substantial Only, -10%.

[Varyon]

The central tenant of GURPS Advantages is "You get what you pay for." This is a little complex for Insubstantiality, considering it functions as a sort of metatrait, but what you're paying for are only those abilities outlined in the Advantage - you get something akin to Permeation (Everything), a slow version of Flight (at Basic Move rather than 2x Basic Speed), and invulnerability to anything that lacks Affects Insubstantial or similar - but you also cannot affect what you're immune to. Affects Substantial just means you can affect what you're immune to, but this is purely binary - either your fist goes right through the target without causing damage, or it strikes them as though you were substantial, with nothing in-between. If you want your attacks to be able to ignore armor and the like, you'll need Cosmic: Irresistible Attack +300%, just like anyone else who wants such an ability. To apply this to your unarmed attacks, you'll need to see the rules for this in Powers and/or Power Ups 4: Enhancements (I think the rules are under "Modifying Unarmed Attacks" or similar). If you want to be able to grab someone's heart and squeeze, that's probably a high-damage Innate Attack (probably around 3x your normal punching damage, to account for it striking the Vitals, which crushing attacks normally can't do*), with Affects Substantial (remember, you need to apply this to any power that can affect substantial foes, in addition to paying for it on Insubstantiality), the above Cosmic: Irresistible Attack, and probably Side Effect: Heart Attack.

*Arguably, considering you'll be ignoring armor anyway, you could potentially justify it being Impaling or Huge Piercing, meaning you only need to match your punching damage, and let the fact you're targeting the Vitals take care of the rest. That does mean you have to take a -3 to hit the target in order to actually get that bonus (and have the Side Effect apply). You could potentially steal the Clumsy Limitation from Striker to simply give the ability a -3 to hit (if doing the "3x damage" option from above), you could apply a Limitation to the Side Effect (via the rules for Limiting Enhancements) so it only applies to Vitals or Skull hits (crushing the brain isn't going to be any better for the victim), or just let the Side Effect always apply - having a semi-insubstantial monster shove its arm through your body is sufficiently traumatic it can cause a Heart Attack regardless, it's just even more likely if the monster grabs and squeezes your vital organs (covered by the fact Side Effect gets harder to resist the more Injury you suffer).

[VadersFear]

My ghost has a sword, which is insubstancial like he is.
It is a Signature Weapon, now with Cosmic and Affect Substancial.
Can I then ignore Armor? But the signature weapon must be quite expensive then... but doesn't looks like it.



Old text, please ignore.

Originally Posted by Anthony

No unless he takes Cosmic (Irresistible Attack), No unless he takes Affliction (Heart Attack).

Is there an errata where I can read it in detail?
The rules in itself are quite vague.

I mean, my ghost can pass through a person, why can't he punch his heart. It would be a heart attack but in the literal sense.

And I don't see the connection to Cosmic...


Both would probably be too powerful, right?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Varyon

To apply this to your unarmed attacks, you'll need to see the rules for this in Powers and/or Power Ups 4: Enhancements (I think the rules are under "Modifying Unarmed Attacks" or similar).

Yes, you need that. See Modifying ST-Based Damage (Powers, p. 146) and/or Modifying Existing Damage (Power-Ups 4, pp. 9-11).

All of this stuff gets costly. If you're using the Powers framework, it might be reasonable to modify all parts of it – Insubstantiality, Invisibility, attack abilities with Affects Insubstantial, modified ST-based damage, etc. – with a power modifier. If that modifier imposes conditions that are unmet, the ghost becomes a normal, visible person with normal attacks. You can leave the power modifier off of Insubstantiality if you'd prefer the ghost simply to become powerless.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by VadersFear

Okay, forget what I wrote down here. The explanations are rushing in...




Is there an errata where I can read it in detail?
The rules in itself are quite vague.

I mean, my ghost can pass through a person, why can't he punch his heart. It would be a heart attack but in the literal sense.

And I don't see the connection to Cosmic...


Both would probably be too powerful, right?

There's no erratum, so you won't find anything. As has been written, GURPS is a you-get-what-you-pay-for system. By default, all Insubstantiality gives you is the ability to be insubstantial, though it somewhat annoyingly throws in a bunch of extra stuff, none of it relevant to attacks. If you want the ability to ignore armor or cause heart attacks, you must buy it separately . . . nothing in Insubstantiality says you can do those things, so you cannot. "Common sense" is not a counterargument – if it doesn't say you can, you can't.

Insubstantiality is quite clear: "you cannot pick up normal objects or affect them in any way" and "your physical and energy attacks cannot affect physical opponents."

Affect Substantial is quite clear: "If you have any abilities that can affect the substantial world when you are insubstantial – including magic, psionics, or powers with the Affects Substantial enhancement (p. 102) – this advantage costs more."

Affects Substantial is quite clear: "Your ability affects substantial targets even when you are insubstantial. It also affects insubstantial creatures normally. (Do not add this enhancement to magical or psi abilities; these can already affect the substantial world at -3.)"

Taken together, this says that to affect the world with physical attacks, you need a physical attack with Affects Substantial, and Insubstantiality with Affect Substantial. Nothing in any of those traits says you can bypass DR or reach into bodies. Therefore, you must buy those powerful attacks separately, with suitable enhancements, notably Cosmic, +300%.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by VadersFear

I mean, my ghost can pass through a person, why can't he punch his heart. It would be a heart attack but in the literal sense.

Same reason a character who literally experiences reality at twice the speed of everyone else (having a level of Altered Time Rate) doesn't automatically get a bonus to hit and defend (due to everything moving slowly compared to the character). Same reason a robot who literally cannot be stressed doesn't get to always claim the +4 to skill for being in a no-stress situation. You Get What You Pay For, nothing more, nothing less. "Ignores armor when attacking" isn't part of Insubstantiality (Affects Substantial) - it's covered by having Irresistible Attack on your relevant abilities.

Originally Posted by VadersFear

And I don't see the connection to Cosmic...

"Cosmic" is basically a label that says "this sort of breaks the rules, so use it with caution." Ignoring DR is something that absolutely does that, and needs to be handled with appropriate caution.

Originally Posted by VadersFear

Both would probably be too powerful, right?

Too powerful to include for free as part of Insubstantiality (Affects Substantial)? Yeah. Too powerful when built as I described? Not really - you're paying just as much (actually, more, because you can use these abilities while immune to mundane attacks) as a substantial character would have to pay for such abilities. Of course, if substantial characters couldn't have abilities that did such things in your campaign, it's probably not fair for insubstantial ones to be able to...

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by VadersFear

My ghost has a sword, which is insubstancial like he is.
It is a Signature Weapon, now with Cosmic and Affect Substancial.
Can I then ignore Armor? But the signature weapon must be quite expensive then... but doesn't looks like it.

So, if your setting has enchantments or similar that give a weapon Affects Substantial (basically the equivalent of a Ghosttouch Weapon) and Irresistible Attack, you'll need to pay the monetary costs for those enchantments, just like you'd need to pay for Puissance for a weapon that did bonus damage. Those are probably expensive enchantments, which boosts the monetary cost of Signature Gear, which boosts the point cost of it.

If such enchantments don't exist, I'd allow you to use the rules for Modifying ST-Based Damage (Powers, p. 146) and/or Modifying Existing Damage (Power-Ups 4, pp. 9-11) (as pointed out by Kromm - in fact, I just copy-pasta'd from his post) for just that weapon. I think the rules in PU4 explicitly allow this.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by VadersFear

I mean, my ghost can pass through a person, why can't he punch his heart. ?

Apart from the game mechanical consideration, your ghost can pass through a person without hitting them, but picking a specific layer of an object to interact with while ignoring the rest is a whole different level of complexity