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Old 11-13-2014, 03:32 AM   #31
Flyndaran
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

Most of pain threshold is intrinsic. Training can likely help with focusing/distracting one's mind. But we all start from different points and have different maximums.
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Old 11-13-2014, 03:44 AM   #32
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

Kreese: Fear does not exist in this dojo, does it?
Karate Class: NO, SENSEI!
Kreese: Pain does not exist in this dojo, does it?
Karate Class: NO, SENSEI!
Kreese: Defeat does not exist in this dojo, does it?
Karate Class: NO, SENSEI!
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Old 11-13-2014, 03:58 AM   #33
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

Nice for training, but real world disabilities show just how destructive a complete lack of fear or pain are.
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Old 11-13-2014, 04:11 AM   #34
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

Yap. These are vital functions for survival. I think they key is to understand pain and fear and learn when they can be safely ignored.
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Old 11-13-2014, 04:19 AM   #35
Flyndaran
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Yap. These are vital functions for survival. I think they key is to understand pain and fear and learn when they can be safely ignored.
Yet if they can be freely/safely ignored, they in effect, don't exist. Who on earth will let themselves feel pain or fear if they don't have to?
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Old 11-13-2014, 04:19 AM   #36
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Most of pain threshold is intrinsic. Training can likely help with focusing/distracting one's mind. But we all start from different points and have different maximums.

But pain and the bodies reaction to it and Shock of being hit and the bodies reaction to it are not the same, and neither is acclimatization to either the same.

And as above the body itself is reacts differently to different expression of pain even if it in the same location.

Chronic vs. acute vs. urgent vs. low level for example.


But in the case of the finger lock vs. broken fingers, Like Ghostdancer said it's a gating response. An application or accretion of pain over time can overwhelm the bodies pain registration system in a different way than say a sudden hit of it.

Without getting into a conversation which involves neuro-transmitters and refresh rates, think about it in terms of what the pain response is designed to do.

1). "there is a problem"
2). "remove the bit of the body involved from the source of the problem" Here's hit of adrenaline to help you do this.



So now imagine what happens to that system if the source of pain is ongoing and urgent. you get lots of '1' and '2' but you don't complete '2'

And of course releasing adrenaline into your system has its own positive and negative feedback loops that kicks in and can work in counter productive ways (resistance and sensitivity to sensory input being an example).
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Old 11-13-2014, 04:27 AM   #37
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

I have a naturally high pain threshold. But my anxiety can hyper sensitize me to even minor discomfort over time and body location. This results in the paradoxical events of the aforementioned broken finger and intense "hurt" I feel from a mild sore throat lasting just a couple of days.

I will always prefer sharp to dull pain, for example. The first is straight pain that I'm strong to, while the other has a fear component that I'm weak to.
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Old 11-13-2014, 04:41 AM   #38
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Yet if they can be freely/safely ignored, they in effect, don't exist. Who on earth will let themselves feel pain or fear if they don't have to?
Because it's not that simple to do, and neither is it that binary, and how its done is not a simple choice

The problem is pain and fear (or more correctly how we react to both) is very, very complicated, with lots of variables. Which is why a lot of training and acclimatisation is actually about recognising similarities in different situations which helps learned responses to more familiar situations to kick in a bit quicker in initially unfamiliar ones.

What not helping here is this is a sub or even unconscious thing as much as its concious thought process.

Take that quote about "huh I got hit harder last Thursday in training"


Its not about equating being mugged as the same as sparring in training, because it's obviously not (and it would probably be dangerous if you did).

It's about the fact that our system acclimatises to certain inputs and learn to react to them in certain ways. So if you spend your Thursday nights getting punched, getting punched is not a brand new experience for your system. If you've never been punched and your systems first time is form some mugger its another new experience for it to deal with while it's dealing with everything else at the same time. Think about is as your systems "comfort zone of experience".

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Old 11-13-2014, 04:56 AM   #39
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I have a naturally high pain threshold. But my anxiety can hyper sensitize me to even minor discomfort over time and body location. This results in the paradoxical events of the aforementioned broken finger and intense "hurt" I feel from a mild sore throat lasting just a couple of days.

I will always prefer sharp to dull pain, for example. The first is straight pain that I'm strong to, while the other has a fear component that I'm weak to.
Yep that good example of the different sliding scales this all works on, and an unusual position on one will effect perception of all of them.


The normal situation is a person can handle 'acute' and 'sharp' or 'chronic' and 'dull' pain. Pain locks are the former but they are extended so the system that's used to sharp pain and residual effect has a hard time with sharp pain continuing.
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Old 11-13-2014, 09:12 AM   #40
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Quite, and as you say acclimatisation is a big part of training as well.

A lot of people aren't used to physical confrontation and tend to freeze up, even less are used to getting hit or hurt during physical confrontation and can freeze up at that as well.


I remember a teacher I had once who said (paraphrased):


I teach you how not to get into fights, but that is the ideal. If you are going to get hit in a fight you want your reaction to be "huh I got hit harder than that in sparring on Thursday night" rather than "ow, ow, ow, what the ****"


(just to say he was talking about the fact that lots of real fights tend to involve hits that aren't actually that hard, most being flailing punches thrown by people who are concentrating more on why they are throwing them not how they are throwing them. We weren't beating each other up or walloping each other with sticks "spetnaz style" or anything)!

basically just another version of train like you fight, fight like you train
Yeah, learning how to take a beating is about fifty percent of learning how to win in my experience. Most people simply aren't used to pain and it can freak them out and throw them off their game. I've seen extremely well-trained folks get punched in the face and that was it. They were done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Most of pain threshold is intrinsic. Training can likely help with focusing/distracting one's mind. But we all start from different points and have different maximums.
I'm sorry, but that is imply not true. You can very easily increase your pain tolerance if you're serious about it. I taught my sister how to fight when she was around 11, there had been a rape at her school and I wanted her prepared. Everything made her cry when we went full contact. She's 22 now and earning a degree so she can be a Army officer (She got a full-ride to West Point after she finishes her Bachelors) - she wiped the floor with her self-defense instructor who proclaimed that "[she] fights dirty and to win. Gentlemen, this girl not only does not fight like a girl, she fights like a solider. [her name] you're going to help me get these sorry sacks of [expletive] into shape." That was day one in her self-defense class and she's gotten better. She doesn't even flinch anymore when she gets hurt. Hell, her instructor is teaching her knife-fighting now, which she has the build for. She was already good against opponents with weapons (something I know how to do well), but she's gotten better. Much better. Add in the fact that she shoots extremely well for how little practice she's gotten and...well, she's going to be a fantastic solider.
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