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Old 07-07-2014, 12:09 PM   #741
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by NineDaysDead View Post
Hmm... actually even without that video, they seem "off": isn't Coulson at least sometimes a "field" Agent? Coulson was created for the Marvel cinematic universe and since then showed up in the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon and mainstream Marvel U; did they significantly nerf him there? He should probably be a "lesser" Nick Fury in many areas, not a "slightly better" generic henchmen type. He is often expected to use his skills under life-threatening situations, so 12s aren't likely to cut it for someone of his standing (and established successes).

I am thinking the low-end for a lot of what he does should probably be an effective Skill of 14, with a high end of 18 and 16 falling safely in the middle. This is not only a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent (which I would interpret as "elite of elite" U.S. military)... hmm checking the post for them, they are probably significantly low-balled, which might explain Coulson. Does "typical" mean the most common, the hypothetical "average", or something else? Given the nature of SHIELD this is a good for low-end or perhaps average "rookies": gifted rookies, competent (or better) experienced or senior agents should be much higher... I think.

SHIELD agents in general are going to be highly trained, above average humans with a lot of "Social" Advantages from the organization itself. Rookie SHIELD agents probably should clock in around the point totals of rookie spec ops teams... of the Marvel Universe, not ours. ;) When all is said and done, SHIELD Agents should probably range from 200 (inexperienced, injured, or just the least of the best) to 1000 points... for "Super Normals". Assuming a lot of your takes for the supers of the MU are less potent than their comic book counterparts, I would still expect someone like Nick Fury to clock in at 500 points minimum and upwards of 1000 points himself thanks to all he has going for him... so 300 points is probably the minimum for Agent Coulson with 400 or 500 a better measure.
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:36 PM   #742
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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He uses Social Chameleon and Acting to make himself seem to not be a threat and distract them, grabs the flour while they're distracted and uses an All Out Attack to lob it, then uses All Out Attack to Beat his target's weapon out of line. He finally grabs and disarms (using Judo) and uses two All Out Attacks to bash the guys' faces in with the shotgun. Him consistently hitting foes in the face is about the only thing there that really implies high combat skills, but in cinema hitting a foe in the face is ridiculously easy - and he could be using Telegraphic Attacks, as these are mere thugs who are probably suffering from Stun thanks to his "I'm a harmless-but-shockingly-calm bystander" routine.
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Old 07-07-2014, 02:52 PM   #743
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Succeeding at such a series of actions is possible at low skills. But doing it reliably requires high skills. And only an idiot would attempt them without rational confidence.
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Old 07-07-2014, 08:05 PM   #744
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Note that tbrocks's write-ups are for the versions of the characters in the setting he is building. They are not necessarily going to match any other version, either from the comics, the MCU, or other sources.
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:59 PM   #745
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
Note that tbrocks's write-ups are for the versions of the characters in the setting he is building. They are not necessarily going to match any other version, either from the comics, the MCU, or other sources.
True, but even then the average SHIELD agent as well as Coulson (...still haven't gotten around to looking up his take on Nick Fury, if it is on here >_<) still seem to be "low-balling" it. Pretend for a minute that SHIELD was a real world government agency: his write-up for the typical SHIELD agent would probably be spot on. Same for a real world Coulson. Even his revised, amalgamated setting (...I have to use "amalgam" whenever I can for discussing comic books XD)... well its just a bit too subdued.

If Nick Fury isn't (for example) a "James Bond meets Rambo crazy good soldier turned head of organization" with his core Skills at level 18-20 (because he does regularly need to soak penalties)... he's still probably just a few levels lower, with core skills at 16-18. 14-16 would be his "real world" counterpart, and seems unlikely to cut it in a world of mutants and masterminds. ;)

So...

Experiend Shield Agents: Skill 16-18 in areas of core competence

"Average" Shield Agents: Skill 14-16 in areas of core competence

Novice Shield Agents: Skill 12-14 in areas of core competence

Remember, they pretty regularly end up using their skills in dangerous, tense situations that aren't going to enjoy that +4 bonus for "safe, everyday use". We aren't just talking about people that earn a living with a Fast-Talk roll (like a used car salesman) but that live or die by it, often taking a lot of innocent people with them if they fail.
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Old 07-08-2014, 05:07 PM   #746
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
True, but even then the average SHIELD agent as well as Coulson (...still haven't gotten around to looking up his take on Nick Fury, if it is on here >_<) still seem to be "low-balling" it. Pretend for a minute that SHIELD was a real world government agency: his write-up for the typical SHIELD agent would probably be spot on. Same for a real world Coulson. Even his revised, amalgamated setting (...I have to use "amalgam" whenever I can for discussing comic books XD)... well its just a bit too subdued.

If Nick Fury isn't (for example) a "James Bond meets Rambo crazy good soldier turned head of organization" with his core Skills at level 18-20 (because he does regularly need to soak penalties)... he's still probably just a few levels lower, with core skills at 16-18. 14-16 would be his "real world" counterpart, and seems unlikely to cut it in a world of mutants and masterminds. ;)

So...

Experiend Shield Agents: Skill 16-18 in areas of core competence

"Average" Shield Agents: Skill 14-16 in areas of core competence

Novice Shield Agents: Skill 12-14 in areas of core competence

Remember, they pretty regularly end up using their skills in dangerous, tense situations that aren't going to enjoy that +4 bonus for "safe, everyday use". We aren't just talking about people that earn a living with a Fast-Talk roll (like a used car salesman) but that live or die by it, often taking a lot of innocent people with them if they fail.
Note that Fury, Coulson, and Romanoff are not part of SHIELD in the Reboot; they're CIA. (SHIELD, if you read the entry and didn't just skip to the stats, is closer to the FBI than it is an espionage agency in the Reboot, with Gyrich at the helm. Not sure yet if Sharon Carter will be CIA or SHIELD.) Fury doesn't run either organization; I'm starting the Reboot with him being a rookie but hyper-competent field agent.

Mind, now that I'm taking a second look at him, I probably did low-ball Coulson a little. Fury (who is in this thread, check around page 20) is around 750 points, and Widow is over 900. Coulson in the Reboot is "supporting cast", not a protagonist. Still, it wouldn't be out of place to increase his DX, IQ, and some skills a few points. I should probably do that at some point.
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Old 07-08-2014, 06:47 PM   #747
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

I will beg pardon up front; such is the difficulty of joining such a long thread, and I am begging both indulgence and forgiveness for things I likely ought to have read earlier but either did and didn't retain or which I missed or which I just didn't understand. For that last one, remember that an intentional change to Marvel lore can be very hard to really comprehend when you're used to just reading everything in light of it (it isn't like Marvel doesn't do fake outs or retcons).

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
Note that Fury, Coulson, and Romanoff are not part of SHIELD in the Reboot; they're CIA.
Okay.

...

Why again?

I apologize if it seems "lazy" for me not to dig through the thread to look this up, but out of the three characters you named, Coulson was invented recently for the purpose of being a SHIELD agent and that is actually his major claim to fame. Fury is simply synonymous with SHIELD, even though he began as an impressive soldier. The third, Romanoff, can pretty easily not be a SHIELD agent; it will be a bit confusing for those that know only the movie continuity, but it isn't a huge deal.

I am fully aware you are designing things how you see fit, but to give an idea, its like you took the X-Men and Cyclops, Wolverine, and Storm aren't just not leadership, but aren't even members. Yes, I know Wolverine and Storm aren't members in the reboot, but I thought Cyclops was still more or less "classic" Cyclops. Or perhaps the Avengers without Captain America, Iron Man, or Wasp would be a better example (then again the fact that I read during a time when Wasp was among the leadership might have been an odd time). Again, though, this is your "baby" so I apologize if I am coming on quite strong; I am just very confused!

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
(SHIELD, if you read the entry and didn't just skip to the stats, is closer to the FBI than it is an espionage agency in the Reboot, with Gyrich at the helm. Not sure yet if Sharon Carter will be CIA or SHIELD.) Fury doesn't run either organization; I'm starting the Reboot with him being a rookie but hyper-competent field agent.
Okay. Again I ask "why?"

I did read your full SHIELD entry; I didn't get much out of it. Factoring in what you had to point out to me (thank you for that!) I would condense all of it into "Redundant government agency." perhaps adding in "...with future potential."

Some of this may come from my own impressions of the FBI and CIA. You will have a hard time convincing someone like myself that they lack an official department for dealing with Super-Powered Beings, let alone an unofficial one; I most definitely can see them having been turned into an individual agency in the 90s... though would even the then President have the ability to separate them out from other agencies? Wouldn't that need to be something that passed through Congress (though he may have pushed for it and eventually signed it into law)?

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Mind, now that I'm taking a second look at him, I probably did low-ball Coulson a little. Fury (who is in this thread, check around page 20) is around 750 points, and Widow is over 900. Coulson in the Reboot is "supporting cast", not a protagonist. Still, it wouldn't be out of place to increase his DX, IQ, and some skills a few points. I should probably do that at some point.
Especially in light of SHIELD not really being "SHIELD"* then I would expect other agencies to have to pick up a lot more of the slack (and to have fewer of their top candidates being recruited away). It does make your version of Coulson a little less under powered, but still under powered. I think you nailed his Attributes... is there a Talent you could add that could help bridge the gap in performance without turning him into someone highly studied as a fed? Bumping his Attributes seems to defeat the purpose; he's supposed to pass as an average guy, which means a 12 in anything is pushing it and a 13 the place in RAW where above-average Attributes begin to become readily noticeable... right?

I just noticed Coulson has no "Talent"... the SHIELD Agent template includes Natural Copper (one I don't know), so perhaps that or some other one would be a good way to bump him up into the "Actually competent in the Marvel Universe" Skill levels?

*No offense intended, but that is how I take what you have told me; you did set out to make your version of SHIELD distinct from what most of us know from comics of the 80s and 90s, right? If not, consider it another thing I would appreciate you attempting to explain... again. ^^'
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:05 PM   #748
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
True, but even then the average SHIELD agent as well as Coulson (...still haven't gotten around to looking up his take on Nick Fury, if it is on here >_<) still seem to be "low-balling" it. Pretend for a minute that SHIELD was a real world government agency: his write-up for the typical SHIELD agent would probably be spot on. Same for a real world Coulson. Even his revised, amalgamated setting (...I have to use "amalgam" whenever I can for discussing comic books XD)... well its just a bit too subdued.
tbrock has already addressed most points, but I just wanted to get back to this one (but not, hopefully, belabor it). You're talking about a matter of opinion in a creative exercise. Certainly we as readers, and presumably as fans of the various sources, might have views on how a given character should look that differ from tbrock's, and that's ok. What I've done in the past in such circumstances is ask questions. "Is your intention to really make the character this vulnerable?" Or "He usually is depicted as having a trait like blargu... Did you leave it off for a reason?" tbrock has been gracious enough to offer explanations, and I am willing to assume that most such things are done for a reason even without his saying so.
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:24 PM   #749
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
I will beg pardon up front; such is the difficulty of joining such a long thread, and I am begging both indulgence and forgiveness for things I likely ought to have read earlier but either did and didn't retain or which I missed or which I just didn't understand. For that last one, remember that an intentional change to Marvel lore can be very hard to really comprehend when you're used to just reading everything in light of it (it isn't like Marvel doesn't do fake outs or retcons).
Fair enough. This thread's been going on since '07, even before the Cinemaverse began. Adding Coulson was actually a recent afterthought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otaku
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock1031
Note that Fury, Coulson, and Romanoff are not part of SHIELD in the Reboot; they're CIA.
Okay.

...

Why again?

I apologize if it seems "lazy" for me not to dig through the thread to look this up, but out of the three characters you named, Coulson was invented recently for the purpose of being a SHIELD agent and that is actually his major claim to fame. Fury is simply synonymous with SHIELD, even though he began as an impressive soldier. The third, Romanoff, can pretty easily not be a SHIELD agent; it will be a bit confusing for those that know only the movie continuity, but it isn't a huge deal.
Partly because SHIELD itself in the comics is largely redundant, being a spy agency Marvel created because they were forbidden by the Comics Code at the time (1962-ish) from using real live agencies. But having Marvel without a SHIELD isn't going to cut it, either. Then I was paging through an Agents of Atlas TPB and figured that having SHIELD be "FBI covering superhuman crime" would fit.

I apologize for any confusion I may have created.

To answer your question about why Fury is starting out as a rookie agent, I always wondered what Fury would be like at the start of his spy career, particularly as we're never shown Fury as anything but the guy in charge of his agency; even in '62, over in Strange Tales, Fury's stories started with him being placed in charge of SHIELD. It's one thing to be a leader in the agency, and quite another for the director of the agency to be doing field work. The latter strains my suspension of disbelief a bit too much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Otaku
It does make your version of Coulson a little less under powered, but still under powered. I think you nailed his Attributes... is there a Talent you could add that could help bridge the gap in performance without turning him into someone highly studied as a fed? Bumping his Attributes seems to defeat the purpose; he's supposed to pass as an average guy, which means a 12 in anything is pushing it and a 13 the place in RAW where above-average Attributes begin to become readily noticeable... right?

I just noticed Coulson has no "Talent"... the SHIELD Agent template includes Natural Copper (one I don't know), so perhaps that or some other one would be a good way to bump him up into the "Actually competent in the Marvel Universe" Skill levels?
Hmm... yeah, a Talent might be a good way to go. "Natural Copper" was pulled from Power-Ups 3: Talents, and gives a bonus to Body Language, Criminology, Detect Lies, Intelligence Analysis, Observation, Savoir-Faire (Police), Search, Shadowing, and Streetwise; IIRC, I gave Coulson a lot of those skills, so that talent might work for him.
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:53 PM   #750
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Thanks tbrock1031; that helps clear things up. I would consider making SHIELD a little less redundant: I agree with the focus on SPBs, but I would make them a slightly older organization at last "coming into their own". Instead of spinning them off from the FBI, I would actually have them in the same position as the FBI and the CIA (or at least how someone like me views them): antagonistic!

This is your project, but in light of your stated goals (at least the ones I remember), coupled with what the Marvel Universe was like when I was enjoying it (admittedly possibly because I just wasn't as discerning), instead of Nick Fury: Über Newbie Agent of SHIELD, we just go back to what he was in the late 80s and I believe the early 90s (as you are already adjusting history for him, right?): he's Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD. He is not the Director (or its a largely meaningless title), but he's a decorated agent with enough clout to explain why he can be as stubborn and insubordinate as he is often depicted without having been severely reprimanded.

That is why he goes on so many missions; he is still a field agent, and the actual Director of SHIELD figures its win-win: Fury usually does a "good enough" job, and with any luck if he fails he dies and Gyrich no longer has to worry about dealing with Fury (and probably can exploit said death politically with certain higher-ups). Some missions that seem "below" Fury are below him, but are punishments. Indeed, that might be the perfect thing for a campaign set around SHIELD agents: Fury did something to annoy someone, and is now stuck "baby-sitting" SHIELD newbies. The "end" of the campaign might be Fury becoming director (if an end is planned).

Forgive me if the reason for not doing this is really, really obvious. >_< Newbie Nick Fury doesn't seem like a "Year 1" character so much as a "Year 0" or "Year -1" character (...which iirc are actual "things" done by Marvel Comics).

Oh, and yeah that talent would probably be a good one to consider. And of course if absolutely necessary, an "extreme" a setting as your typical "four color" Supers setting can easily justify a GM "crutch" style Talent; if you view a setting through the lens of GURPS it seems an acceptable trope as certain people are just way too suited for their career than their Attributes and training would indicate, and its only unfair if it is denied to PCs in a similar situation. I would even consider creating a Talent relating to living in the Marvel Universe for "mundane" characters; not everyone would have it, but competent civilians are a handy tool and somewhat expected since humanity hasn't died out. ;)
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