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Old 09-21-2019, 06:24 AM   #101
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Uh, Lifting ST is an exotic advantage which per B32 "Exotic advantages are traits that ordinary humans cannot have without ultra-tech body modification or similar tampering" so I would avoid using that to model a real person.
It is best not to take those categories too seriously when modeling real people. There are advantages which are neither exotic, supernatural or described as cinematic, which no real human can have (e.g. Intuitive Mathematician) and Lifting ST is an exotic advantage which I have not seen any good argument for excluding from humans.
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Old 09-21-2019, 06:41 AM   #102
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

I think these discussions always end up like this more or less.

I just think there is some kind of problems with how ST, Lifting Skill and Extra Effort interact, the range of possible results seem too large to me.
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Old 09-21-2019, 06:47 AM   #103
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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I think these discussions always end up like this more or less.

I just think there is some kind of problems with how ST, Lifting Skill and Extra Effort interact, the range of possible results seem too large to me.
Agreed on both counts. For a realistic game I would limit the bonus Lifting skill and Extra Effort can give, in order to achieve more realistic results.
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:18 AM   #104
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Without any training? Do you think he popped out of his mother's womb with that ST score? Aged 18 he looked like this. Training (And in his case, steroids) is what gets you such an absurdly high ST score. Nobody starts out like that.
You're right here: what I wrote was too caricatural. It's not without any training but without any specific training in Lifting skill.

The problem in reality is that it's impossible to train what GURPS attributes cover without doing a very specific activity. Nobody ever improves his ST, DX, IQ, or HT without practicing a skill or a handful of skills.

Do you want to improve your Basic Move? You have to train your Running skill for that. There is no other realistic way to do it. And there is no muscle training without lifting a lot of weighs, i.e. without training in the Lifting skill.

Last edited by Gollum; 09-21-2019 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:30 AM   #105
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
I think these discussions always end up like this more or less.

I just think there is some kind of problems with how ST, Lifting Skill and Extra Effort interact, the range of possible results seem too large to me.
I don't see it as a problem. It is a problem if you want to play only realistic games. But GURPS is not designed for that. It is designed to allow playing harshly realistic characters as well as super-heroes, and everything between, with the same rules.

So, some problems always raise at the limits, for ST, as well as for any other attribute. How to make Einstein or Tesla without giving them the ability to be too good at every mental skills? How to make Mike Horn without making him superhuman? And so on ...

But GURPS is still very well written: one way to remain realistic is to keep basic attributes as low as possible and to choose advantages, perks, skills and techniques instead.

The only problem is that it usually costs more CP than the heroic version of the same character. But, for me, it's not a problem. Beginning characters just never start as the bests of the world in their field of activity.

Last edited by Gollum; 09-21-2019 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:21 AM   #106
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

A lot of things in Gurps don't make sense realistically, but they're designed the way they are for gameplay purposes and balancing. I think it's more important to use rulings for that above realism.
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Old 09-21-2019, 12:17 PM   #107
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Exactly, GURPS is a game, not reality. It is a better reality simulator than the vast majority of games, but it sacrifices realism for playability and fun. In my own experience, I would have lost the majority of my players in my games had I forced them to make realistic characters.

For example, I have had more than one player who insisted on playing ST 20 female characters (quite easy to do in 250 CP 'realistic' campaigns). The characters proved to be quite useful, even in modern campaigns, because they could easily subdue people without resorting to weapons. It was also quite fun for the players because they got to feel powerful.
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Old 09-21-2019, 01:01 PM   #108
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
You missed the actually point being raised here.

The Lifting Skill "increases your Basic Lift by 5% times your margin of success for the purpose of picking up heavy objects". The formula is ((1+(0.05x))*ST^ST/5 or ST = square root of (BL*5*(1+(0.05x))

However the modifiers for Extra Effort are figured off of ST not BL which produces the somewhat ugly (ST^2*(1+0.1x+.0025x^2))/5
Your problem is you're using the lifting skill as realistic; it isn't. As written it's far too swinging and to generous. Proper form and technique are very important, but they don't make that much difference to the amount you can shift, someone with a skill of 13 can get a 50% increase, without extra effort. That's crazy.
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Using both can get his ST down to a reasonable 15.
You're suggesting that his "no Encumbrance" limit is only 45lbs? Compared to a normal persons 20lbs? Despite being a 440 lbs. 6'9" beast that does nothing but train and eat steroids?

Last edited by NineDaysDead; 09-21-2019 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 09-21-2019, 01:10 PM   #109
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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So, some problems always raise at the limits, for ST, as well as for any other attribute. How to make Einstein or Tesla without giving them the ability to be too good at every mental skills?
Use Talents?
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Old 09-21-2019, 01:47 PM   #110
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Use Talents?
Yes. It works fine for Einstein. But it's a bit harder for Tesla who was outstandingly good for very different kind of skills (not only Physics and Mathematics) ...

But no matter, the solution for creating more realistic characters is always advantages (including talents) and skills, rather than raw attributes.

To the contrary, the solution for creating cinematic characters is attributes. Universal genius? IQ 18. Professional level (12 or plus) for every mental skills, including hard ones. Done.
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