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Old 09-06-2010, 12:07 PM   #101
sir_pudding
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Default Re: The art of Dungeon Fantasy 13: Monsters 1

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Damn, you're EVIL! I absolutely love metal re-imaging of classical music. Like the Wizard's Last Rhymes from Rhapsody of Fire. Now I'll have to hunt for their CDs...
Isn't Rhapsody also a Spanish band? You guys have the best symphonic stuff.
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:12 PM   #102
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Isn't Rhapsody also a Spanish band? You guys have the best symphonic stuff.
Sadly, no [BLUSH]...
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:16 PM   #103
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Sadly, no [BLUSH]...
My apologies to the people of Italy. At any rate the best symphonic metal is Mediterranean, at least. Besides Dark Moor who I really dig, I've heard a number of other Spanish bands that seriously rock. All of whom have album covers that would make great art for DF13 (to bring it back OT).
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:24 PM   #104
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Default Re: The art of Dungeon Fantasy 13: Monsters 1

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Isn't Rhapsody also a Spanish band? You guys have the best symphonic stuff.
Italian. Euro-metal is very good IMHO. I certainly like German metal (Blind Guardian), Italian Metal (Rhapsody) and Nordic metal (Amon Amarth)
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:29 PM   #105
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Default Re: The art of Dungeon Fantasy 13: Monsters 1

Conversely, my ideal of DF ubersilly covers/metal music were Solitude Aeturnus, the TEXAN band.
Glorious stuff.
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:34 PM   #106
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Conversely, my ideal of DF ubersilly covers/metal music were Solitude Aeturnus, the TEXAN band.
Glorious stuff.
If we are going to go that route I can't help but mention 3 Inches of Blood. The lead singer has a d20 tattoo, by Odin's Beard!
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Old 09-06-2010, 01:43 PM   #107
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Default Re: The art of Dungeon Fantasy 13: Monsters 1

You can't beat the Lord Slough Feg.
Gruffing about Irish myths (but their main man had an Italian name...) they were so proud of having their covers drawn by the same artist of many old D&D modules...
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Old 09-06-2010, 02:16 PM   #108
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A DF adventure where involving a raid on a tribe of "monsters" isn't going to concern itself with the social, political, or ecological effects of the raid. There aren't going to be any non-combatants for the PCs to worry about. PCs aren't going to have difficult moral choices that lead to possible atrocities that torture them all of their days. A realistic serious fantasy campaign would concern itself with these issues. DF doesn't. That is the sort of silly that I think Kromm is talking about. Somehow I really doubt that if Kromm changed his mind and put out DF 15: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, DF 16: Serfs, and DF 17: Plagues the critics in this thread would be all that happy.
I really don't see how that description makes DF silly or why a serious game needs to have post traumatic stress disorder/etc. I think you're right that people are using different definitions of 'silly', but I just don't see how you can say 'DF is by definition silly' without it actually being, well, silly. DF is about a simple, fun dungeon romp. It isn't about laugh-a-minute, absolutely-thing-is-ever-actually-thought-upon stuff, and it isn't a cartoon in the vein of Family Guy or even Futurama.

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And that is serious? The PCs IIRC then proceed to loot and plunder the temple while trying to stop Zuggtmov (yeah that name's not goofy in a Metal way or anything). Where is the deep characterization and the complex themes? There isn't any. It's a simple sword and sorcery adventure story. Which is great, but it is kind of silly.
Deep characterization and complex themes aren't required for a 'serious' game - it just needs to be not-a-comedy-act. At least, that's how most people on the 'DF can be serious!' side seem to be using the term 'serious' as opposed to 'silly'.

In any case, I think it would be a shame if the DF monster's book was all illustrated with purely comical cartoons. I not only don't particularly care for the artistic style of the Munchkin cards (they just aren't aesthetically pleasing to me *shrug*), but making it all comical would just 'feel' wrong, not to mention the fact it wouldn't actually illustrate what the monsters are actually supposed to look like (since that style is all about exaggeration and not-depicting-things-accurately). It would make DF look like a bad parody of roleplaying, and if I was interested in that I might want to do a Munchkin roleplaying game rather than DF.

Basically, comic book-esque art is fine. Comic strip-esque, not so much, if you get what I'm saying.
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Old 09-06-2010, 02:29 PM   #109
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Default Re: The art of Dungeon Fantasy 13: Monsters 1

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You can't beat the Lord Slough Feg.
Gruffing about Irish myths (but their main man had an Italian name...) they were so proud of having their covers drawn by the same artist of many old D&D modules...
Erol Otus.

That's how I first found them - because of their Erol Otus album covers. He's my number-one favorite fantasy illustrator of all time.
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Old 09-06-2010, 03:05 PM   #110
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I really don't see how that description makes DF silly or why a serious game needs to have post traumatic stress disorder/etc.
It's an example of a theme that wouldn't be appropriate to the genre. It's also a realistic consequence for a life of interpersonal violence.

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I think you're right that people are using different definitions of 'silly', but I just don't see how you can say 'DF is by definition silly' without it actually being, well, silly.
You don't find titles like "Temple of Elemental Evil" or names like Zuggtmov the least bit silly? Mighty thewed warriors in horned helmets? Female warriors in mail bikinis? Animals whose sole ecological niche is looking like treasure chests or ceilings and eating adventurers? Or exactly fitting in 10' corridors and cruising around eating trash?
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DF is about a simple, fun dungeon romp.
Simple and fun does not equate to seriousness, generally.
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It isn't about laugh-a-minute, absolutely-thing-is-ever-actually-thought-upon stuff, and it isn't a cartoon in the vein of Family Guy or even Futurama.
No, it's more like Ralph Bashi's Wizards, if it was a cartoon.
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Deep characterization and complex themes aren't required for a 'serious' game - it just needs to be not-a-comedy-act. At least, that's how most people on the 'DF can be serious!' side seem to be using the term 'serious' as opposed to 'silly'.
I'm sorry, I should have said "deep scene-setting or storytelling"; which seems to be the statement they are taking umbrage with.
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