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Old 11-10-2011, 12:50 PM   #141
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

I've been driving around in Napoli, and Italy in general, for the past month, and while the people here have a reputation for being bad drivers, I have to say that I'd actually rate them as much, much, better drivers than our normal American drivers.

Yes, they don't follow normal rules of the road, yes they will create 4-6 lanes of traffic in roads clearly marked for 2-3 lanes, they don't come to even a rolling stop at stop signs, but all in all, they don't seem to have as many accidents here as we do back in the States.

Then again, the fact that most of us in the States drive distracted, with burger or drink in hand, fiddling with the radio, or being generally oblivious, may have something to do with it, the Italians have to be paying total attention to everything around them at all times, because they know someone will cut them off out of left field in the next couple of minutes.

So paying total attention vs driving distracted, may explain the difference, but I'd still opine that more Italians in general are likely to have actual skill vs Americans in general, with most people either way still mostly going off of default.

Oh, and it did take me a long sec to gain the familiarity to drive these roads and streets comfortably like the locals, and I do have colleagues who've been here for years that still can't drive comfortably, I'd classify them as default skill drivers.
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:19 PM   #142
Ewan
 
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Default Re: Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

In the UK it assumes an average of 67 hours to pass your driving test

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/motoring...est/dg_4022483

To be honest I cannot remember having 47 hours of professional instruction, I reckon only about 30 hours but that was nearly 30 years ago.
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:30 PM   #143
mhd
 
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Default Re: Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

I found some data for 2005, where the average in Germany was 35 hours (23 general driving instruction plus the 12 mandatory specific ones).
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:44 PM   #144
smurf
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Default Re: Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
I've been driving around in Napoli, and Italy in general, for the past month, and while the people here have a reputation for being bad drivers, I have to say that I'd actually rate them as much, much, better drivers than our normal American drivers.

Yes, they don't follow normal rules of the road, yes they will create 4-6 lanes of traffic in roads clearly marked for 2-3 lanes, they don't come to even a rolling stop at stop signs, but all in all, they don't seem to have as many accidents here as we do back in the States.

Then again, the fact that most of us in the States drive distracted, with burger or drink in hand, fiddling with the radio, or being generally oblivious, may have something to do with it, the Italians have to be paying total attention to everything around them at all times, because they know someone will cut them off out of left field in the next couple of minutes.

So paying total attention vs driving distracted, may explain the difference, but I'd still opine that more Italians in general are likely to have actual skill vs Americans in general, with most people either way still mostly going off of default.

Oh, and it did take me a long sec to gain the familiarity to drive these roads and streets comfortably like the locals, and I do have colleagues who've been here for years that still can't drive comfortably, I'd classify them as default skill drivers.
I driven through a few countries. France, Germany, Austria and Switzerland. I have observed Belgium, Dutch, Irish, Polish, Latvian, Romanian and Italian drivers. I know that Danish, Norwegian and Swedish drivers hold their breaths for UK drivers in snowy winters. You do find an odd patern of drivers from certain areas, whilst it may not be a national attitude you do see local attitudes. A friend from London said driving in London is easy... everyone is a maniacs, he hated Bristol for having every type of driver, a lot were couteous of other drivers and would stop on main roads to let people in. A few moments later there would be maniacs.
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:46 PM   #145
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Default Re: Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

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I was simply stating that if Utah, one of the most strict states in the US on the subject, only requires that small amount of time before you are considered legally safe enough to drive alone, I can easily see most people only driving at default under most conditions.
What that means is that NEW drivers are operating at default, not that a majority of drivers are operating at default. Look at the statistics for accidents rates of people in their first few years of driving versus drivers in general. New drivers are significantly more likely to get into accidents, which is exactly what you'd expect for people who haven't had enough practice to get above the default.

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1. is a limiter, you can set it at the 'legal' speed limit within a built up area and can never go above it... stops cameras, police and fines.

2. is the cruise control which keeps the car at a constant set speed, less fatiguing on a long drive. Note: changing gear, braking or switching it off will turn it off, most allow you to accerlate and when the foot is removed from the pedal the speed reduces down back to the set speed.

3. Power assisted stearing is very handy for many changes in direction, especially at low speeds.
I'm inclined to say that most of those merely reduce the fatigue cost of long-term driving.
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:55 PM   #146
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Default Re: Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

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You do not have the right to a driving licence in the UK, you have to prove you a capable. It feels like the other way round in the USA ie. it seems you do have the right to a licence and the state has to prove you are incompetent to deny you one. Or is that not that case?
You have to pass a driving test, just like anywhere else. Every state has variations, but all require passing a written and visual test of traffic laws, and all require a test with a human evaluator.

Given the high accident rates, I suspect many if not most drivers are using their default until their 20th birthday if not beyond.
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Old 11-11-2011, 02:14 AM   #147
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Default Re: Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

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What that means is that NEW drivers are operating at default, not that a majority of drivers are operating at default.
Exactly !

And that is what say GURPS rules.

Driving license, 20 to 100 hours. Default level.

But there is also experience. Someone who drives just half an hour a day (to commute work, to go to the shopping, etc.), drives about 180 hours a year.

This is Learning on the job (Basic Set, page 293: "most of the time ... is spent doing what you already know, not learning new things"), 800 hours are required for a Character Point...

Which gives 1 point in learning skill every 4.5 year. And which means for a average DX 10 man...

18.0 years old, driving license: Driving - 05 [0] *
22.5 years old, driving license: Driving - 09 [1]
27.0 years old, driving license: Driving - 10 [2]
31.5 years old, driving license: Driving - 10 [3]
36.0 years old, driving license: Driving - 11 [4]
40.5 years old, driving license: Driving - 11 [5]
45.0 years old, driving license: Driving - 11 [6]
49.5 years old, driving license: Driving - 11 [7]
54.0 years old, driving license: Driving - 11 [8] **
58.5 years old, driving license: Driving - 10 [9] **
63.0 years old, driving license: Driving - 09 [10] **
67.5 years old, driving license: Driving - 08 [11] **
72.0 years old, driving license: Driving - 07 [12] **
76.5 years old, driving license: Driving - 05 [13] **


* I started from 18 years old because, in France, 18 is the legal age to pass the driving license.
** For aging, I simplified things a lot: one roll failed every 4 rolls (HT + TL-3, as explained in the Basic Set, page 444, gives an effective HT of 12, which gives about 75% chance of success).

Last edited by Gollum; 11-11-2011 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:27 AM   #148
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Default Re: Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

It's not quite like that.

Driving in the dark. Improves perception I suppose.
Driving in bad weather, rain or snow. Improves caution and anticipation
Driving in unfamiliar areas. Improves all of the above
Driving in another country. Improves anticipation and route planning

I have been driving for 14 years.

Roughly about 5500 hours of driving

Therefore I have 6pts which equates to Driving +3

That makes it 3 more years to Driving +4

This abstraction is not that useful IMO. If I was to push my car (laughs to self about many funny comments regarding that statement) to the limit, it has a natural limit it can be pushed to. It can only accerlate to X, stopping distance is Y/v and top speed is set at about 115mph (and I have only ever touched 111mph once, it was not nice).

Open roads are great for going fast but soon as another road user pops up then the game totally changes... caution is the better part of valour here.
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:33 AM   #149
Gollum
 
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Default Re: Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

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It's not quite like that.
Of course. That is just a roughly approximation. In reality, we don't all learn at the same rate, and we don't improve our skills with such a regularity. Sometimes, we learn fast and other times we don't learn anything during weeks or months...

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
Driving in the dark. Improves perception I suppose. Driving in bad weather, rain or snow. Improves caution and anticipation. Driving in unfamiliar areas. Improves all of the above. Driving in another country. Improves anticipation and route planning.
Yes. That's why the rules say "most of the time ... is spent doing what you already know". Sometimes, you still learn something new, as you described it just above.

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
I have been driving for 14 years. Roughly about 5500 hours of driving. Therefore I have 6pts which equates to Driving +3. That makes it 3 more years to Driving +4
6 points means that you have the Driving skill at a basic level of DX+1 and 8 points would improve it to DX+2 (not +3 and +4).

It is not unrealistic because you drive a lot. And a skill of 11 or 12 is not so high. The Character creation booklet sold with the GM Screen, say that Ordinary Folks skills are between 8 and 13 (page 37).

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
This abstraction is not that useful IMO. If I was to push my car (laughs to self about many funny comments regarding that statement) to the limit, it has a natural limit it can be pushed to ...
Driving skill - 12, for instance means that in a car chase (average difficulty), you fail one roll in four. Which is dangerous enough to avoid doing it just for fun. Even if a failed roll doesn't always mean an accident.

In our real world, we avoid dangerous activity with more than 25% of failing. But we drive on ordinary roads without fear, which means that we are skilled enough to do it confidently.
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:53 AM   #150
trans
 
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Default Re: Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

I got my license at age 17 after about 3-4 hours of classroom driver's ed in school and maybe 4-5 hours of on-road practice with my Dad.

So at that point I was driving at default, but I drove only about once a month, and I did get into some scary situations, especially when merging into heavy high-speed traffic.

At age 21 I worked three months of 50-hour weeks as a pizza deliverer (30 minutes or less!) in some fairly congested inner suburbs, much of it at night and in bad weather. After that and a number of long road trips I probably got a point in Driving, but I doubt that I've improved any since then.

I agree with Ze about driving in Naples (though it has been a long time since I drove there). Better to have alert and predictably aggressive drivers than ones that are inattentive and either aggressive or timid in turn. In fact, it seems that most of the scary driving situations I have been in were a result of timidity/indecisiveness, either on my part or the other driver's.
Mindless aggression is also bad, of course.
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