Star Wars: Space Ships, Hyperspace Travel, Blasters, ST

[JackRackham]

1. Is there a way to make blasters relevant in a world with lightsabers? I mean, they're relevant setting-wise, because they're common and easy to use, but for PCs, why use a blaster? I'm looking for a mechanical argument. I know the roleplaying and setting reasons very well.
1b. Am I missing something (possibly misunderstanding a rule), or are Blaster Rifles also strictly better than Blaster Pistols, even with dual wielding?

2. The same question, but for the ST stat. Now, I'm fully aware that vibroblades exist and that, for non-force adepts, they are pretty good. However, I don't like that ST is all-but mechanically useless to a Jedi in combat. Such is not the case in the canon, where strength in the force is more important, not solely important. Anakin Skywalker's physical ST, for example, was supposed to be an asset. How can I make this stat more relevant for a lightsaber weilder, preferably without making it NECESSARY to have ST in lightsaber combat? Basically, I want a character to be able to use their ST somehow to enhance their ability to fight with a lightsaber. I'm aware of vibroblades, but they don't really compete well with lightsabers AT ALL.
2a. Would it work and make sense to make their blows more difficult to parry?
2b. Or would this work better:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

How about: Make effective Light-Sabre weight be calculated based on the user's BL. Make 'break' results indicate that a strike was so forceful that it gets through the parry (partially or fully, either as a penalty, or as minor, glancing damage to the target)?

Hypothetically, this would be dependent on the difference betwen the ST of the combatants and I'm not sure if it should be a straight penalty to parry, or just a penalty to parry successive blows. I also don't know how it should scale. Would a -1 per 2 difference in ST work? Maybe a -1 per 3 ST difference?

3. My impression after a very long day constructing a ship is that GURPS Traveller has the most consistent and usable rules for spaceship design in the GURPS canon, but requires pretty significant re-fluffing and even ignoring of rules, to get a Star Wars feel. As a corolary, the various places Starship design is discussed are seemingly incompatible - or, at the very least, not compatible without a fair amount of math or guesswork. Am I way off here (this IS coming from a complete gurps-newbie)?

4. In the Star Wars canon, to my understanding, hyperspace travel took somewhere between hours and days to travel between places that could be on the other side of the galaxy from one another and travel times depended greatly on the particular hyperspace conditions of the trip and the ship. Am I misunderstanding anything here? Also, this would seem to make establishing specific hyperspace speeds for vehicles very difficult, right? So, probably abstract that? I'm thinking a rating between 1-10 or 1-12, with no particular speed attached, but rather relationships between the speeds. Thoughts?

5. On a related note, I intend to do away with the seemingly overspecific (meaning too time consuming) GURPS rules for ship movement and instead just give them a similar speed rating (1-12) and acceleration rating (1-12) - with different ratings for atmospheric and space flight, and both separate from hyperspace speed. I figure, I'll abstract distances to "units." One's speed rating will be the maximum "units" on can move per turn and the acceleration rating will be the maximum change in velocity expressed un units/rd. So, a ship with speed 10 and acceleration 5 takes two turns to reach maximum speed, covering 15 "units" in the process. It would then take five turns (one extra, for most ships, as there's a turn involved, etc) to reach maximum speed in the opposite direction. The amount of thrust required to turn right, left, up, or down would depend on the degree of change required. I know this is a pretty severe abstraction, but is there any reason this wouldn't be playable?

I'm sure I have more questions. But that's all for now.

EDIT: I should mention that I have some houserules in place.
1. Lightsabers can only be used by the force-sensitive (this ability is how the plasma is contained and how one keeps track of the position of the weightless blade).
2. Parrying blasters is not its own skill, nor does it require combat precognition. One must be force sensitive and trained in a lightsaber skill. One's parry is based off said skill. I'm considering a. making lightsaber a hard skill, b. applying a penalty to parrying blasters and beam weapons, c. making blaster parrying a technique within the lightsaber skill, allowing one to buy it up to no penalty (this is the most likely scenario). I WANT blasters to be fairly easy to parry with a lightsaber, as in the movies, without everyone being a 300-point-buy.
3. What I ultimately end up doing depends on how a one-shot, non-canon, alpha-test session tomorrow goes.

Also, for further background/campaign details, see:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=90915

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by JackRackham

1. Is there a way to make blasters relevant in a world with lightsabers? I mean, they're relevant setting-wise, because they're common and easy to use, but for PCs, why use a blaster? I'm looking for a mechanical argument. I know the roleplaying and setting reasons very well.

The vast majority of your opponents will not themselves have lightsabers and only people who have the precognitive parry ability will find lightsabers to be all that much use against blaster armed opponents.

2. The same question, but for the ST stat. Now, I'm fully aware that vibroblades exist and that, for non-force adepts, they are pretty good. However, I don't like that ST is all-but mechanically useless to a Jedi in combat. Such is not the case in the canon, where strength in the force is more important, not solely important. Anakin Skywalker's physical ST, for example, was supposed to be an asset. How can I make this stat more relevant for a lightsaber weilder, preferably without making it NECESSARY to have ST in lightsaber combat? Basically, I want a character to be able to use their ST somehow to enhance their ability to fight with a lightsaber. I'm aware of vibroblades, but they don't really compete well with lightsabers AT ALL. Would it work and make sense to make their blows more difficult to parry?

Not inherently. This is of course the first time I've ever heard that Anakin's physical strength was supposed to matter. It would make sense for vibroblade uses to make heavy use of deceptive and feinting attacks against lightsaber uses. But that's not relevant to the goal. I suggest you use Stasis blades instead or at least their stats.

4. In the Star Wars canon, to my understanding, hyperspace travel took somewhere between hours and days to travel between places that could be on the other side of the galaxy from one another and travel times depended greatly on the particular hyperspace conditions of the trip and the ship. Am I misunderstanding anything here?

Probably not.

[Refplace]

Welcome to GURPS.
Blasters are still useful for ranged combat. Not everyone is a Jedi and guys with Blasters can still slow down a Jedi as he defends.

GURPS has to my knowledge 3 systems that can design spaceships.
VDS for 3e (Gurps Vehicles), GURPS Spaceships and GURPS Traveler.
Traveler is a setting that comes with its own unique rules for space travel and they were designed for long delays in interstellar travel.
The other two are built to allow you to make any kind of ship to suit whatever kind of campaign or genre you want. To make them consistent just say everyone uses the same kind of tech.

An Abstract movement and combat system are fine for some people, others ant more detail or will insist on converting to real world scale.
So it depends on the GM and players as what is the best fit.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by JackRackham

1. Is there a way to make blasters relevant in a world with lightsabers? I mean, they're relevant setting-wise, because they're common and easy to use, but for PCs, why use a blaster? I'm looking for a mechanical argument. I know the roleplaying and setting reasons very well.

Range is always nice. And unlike in the movies, in a game blocking a blaster bolt will probably not be automatic, so sometimes Lightsaber-guy will miss one of the several parries he needs to make while closing to where he can swing at Blaster-guy and end up dead as a result.

2. The same question, but for the ST stat. Now, I'm fully aware that vibroblades exist and that, for non-force adepts, they are pretty good

Do they? I don't think they appear in the films, only in the Expanded Universe stuff, and not very prominently there. And you only see them when they have lightsaber parrying properties and are used by people with skill levels good enough to take Jedi, so being pretty good may be an illusion too.

However, I don't like that ST is all-but mechanically useless to a Jedi in combat.

So use ST based damage for lightsabers rather than a fixed value. Perhaps allowing characters to buy some level of Striking Strength (lightsabers only) as part of the Force power to make up for low ST to allow for weak masters who're still pretty dangerous with one. This may explain why non-Jedi don't use the things - if without those levels of Striking ST, a lightsaber does no more damage than a broadsword....

As a corolary to, the various places Starship design is discussed are seemingly incompatible - or, at the very least, not compatible without a fair amount of math or guesswork. Am I way off here (this IS coming from a complete gurps-newbie)?

This is more or less true. GURPS has had several more or less incompatible spaceship design systems over time. Many of the later ones, including the 4e ones are build on the 3e Vehicles rules, but with differing choices of simplifications. There's a line of PDFs (Spaceships) that does a simplification into modules similar to the Traveller rules but with more generic options.

4. In the Star Wars canon, to my understanding, hyperspace travel took somewhere between hours and days to travel between places that could be on the other side of the galaxy from one another and travel times depended greatly on the particular hyperspace conditions of the trip and the ship. Am I misunderstanding anything here?

Travel in Star Wars moves at the speed of plot. And if the "galaxy" contains more than a few hundred worlds, it seems to have no impact on the plot either.

I think I'd call it as the distance between the destinations is irrelevant, and travel time varies only with things like those hyperspace conditions (and how good your computer/astrogator is) and not at all with how "far" you have to go.

I know this is a pretty severe abstraction, but is there any reason this wouldn't be playable?

Seems workable to me, though still a little complex. Though ships in SW don't particularly do vector motion at all. You'd probably come closest to the *feel* of Starwars by ditching the acceleration and 3D stuff entirely and using the rules from your favorite World War II naval wargame.

[Phantasm]

As far as a high-strength character having a bonus with the lightsaber, yes, both Darths Bane and Vader were large (2 meters each, IIRC), with superior strength.

What I would do is permit a high-ST (>10) lightsaber user to add his ST-based damage to the lightsaber; low-ST (<11) lightsaber users won't. In addition, use of the Power Blow skill with a lightsaber would affect the ST-based damage, but not the standard 8d from the force sword/lightsaber itself.

For a truly cinematic blow, don't have ST affect the lightsaber damage, but permit Power Blow (and similar Weapon Master skills) to double the base damage of the lightsaber. (16d... eep!)

Also, note that both the Force Sword and Force Saber (the fencing version of Force Sword) skills are DX/A, while Beam Weapons is DX/E. And with the high Acc ratings on blasters, Gunslinger certainly becomes worth it for shooting without taking the second to Aim.

So a lightsaber wielder with Weapon Master (Lightsaber) and Precognitive Parry and Power Blow goes up against a Gunslinger with a tricked-out heavy blaster pistol and Quick Draw (Pistol). Who will win? In this case, it's all up to the dice!

[JackRackham]

I'm feeling better about the blasters, at least, but I'm really curious about the idea of ST making it more difficult to parry a blow (possibly through training a technique or somesuch) or something. When I watch and read about Vader/Anakin fighting, it looks like he's almost knocking the lightsaber out of opponents' hands and everything I read seems to suggest it was difficult to parry, to the extent that people struggled not to drop their lightsabers.

I don't think it should effect damage AT ALL, because I see no evidence for a lightsaber having difficulty cutting through anything not a lightsaber or a 10-inch-thick blast door. That part is definitely right. I'm just trying to think of ways to make a high-ST lightsaber fighter more practical.

Also:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

This is of course the first time I've ever heard that Anakin's physical strength was supposed to matter.

From Wookieepedia:

"Both Form V variants became the favored fighting styles of Anakin Skywalker, as their aggressive and strength-oriented fighting methods fit well with his arrogant, confrontational personality type. "

"As the Clone War progressed, Skywalker spent the following years of the conflict developing his skills in the many pitched battles. He began studying the Djem So variant of Form V and used brute strength to overwhelm his opponents."

"Relying on both strength and agility, Skywalker proved able to adequately fend off or evade enemy attacks while immediately offering counters. By the time of the Battle of Teth, Skywalker was able to effectively hold his own against Dooku, as shown by their confrontation on Tatooine"

"When confronting Dooku for the last time, Skywalker relied heavily on these emotions to fuel his offense, demonstrating both overwhelming strength and bewildering speed as he bashed through Dooku's precision defense and sliced off both of the Count's hands before brutally executing him.[14] Before his death, Dooku acknowledged Skywalker as the finest Djem So stylist that he had ever seen."

"In his mechanical life-support suit, it was extremely difficult to engage in the energetic acrobatics of Ataru, an act that would quickly tire him, defeating the purpose of the aggressive style. Initially after gaining the suit, Vader was forced to rely on brute strength to batter his opponents, utilizing a clumsy method that utilized stiffly executed vertical strikes to wear down his opponent, although he included elements of Soresu and Ataru bladework in this, as witnessed by Jedi Master Roan Shryne when Vader engaged Bol Chatak."

"Rather than attempting to fight through the bulky and heavy armor, Vader fought with it, utilizing the armor's weight and his powerful prosthetics to provide his blows with incredible force....."

"...onboard the second Death Star, Luke managed to defeat Vader. Mirroring Darth Vader's own Form V technique, Skywalker responded with his own furious demonstration of the style's raw power. Luke proved able to meet Vader strength-to-strength, his marked increase in skill and sudden display of aggression toward the end of their bout caught Vader off guard, allowing Luke to drive back and overwhelm the experienced Sith Lord."

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by JackRackham

1. Is there a way to make blasters relevant in a world with lightsabers? I mean, they're relevant setting-wise, because they're common and easy to use, but for PCs, why use a blaster? I'm looking for a mechanical argument. I know the roleplaying and setting reasons very well.

Well, shooting down lots of mooks, for one. Shooting at long range. Really, what is there not to like about a blaster? It is good enough to cause casualties in a single hit (against normal targets, based on the film data), has range, has rapid fire. Sure, it's not as good against Jedi/Sith, but everything is not as good against Jedi/Sith.

I actually wonder how a duel between a bounty hunter and a jedi built on the same point total will fare. I suspect with high enough skill in Guns (Beam Pistol/Blaster), the BH will have enough Deceptive Attack to bypass the Light-Sabre Parry.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I actually wonder how a duel between a bounty hunter and a jedi built on the same point total will fare. I suspect with high enough skill in Guns (Beam Pistol/Blaster), the BH will have enough Deceptive Attack to bypass the Light-Sabre Parry.

What sort of RoF do these blasters have? I'd feel tempted to try Ranged Rapid Strikes to separate hit locations so as to require multiple parries.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by JackRackham

I'm feeling better about the blasters, at least, but I'm really curious about the idea of ST making it more difficult to parry a blow (possibly through training a technique or somesuch) or something. When I watch and read about Vader/Anakin fighting, it looks like he's almost knocking the lightsaber out of opponents' hands and everything I read seems to suggest it was difficult to parry, to the extent that people struggled not to drop their lightsabers.

I don't think it should effect damage AT ALL, because I see no evidence for a lightsaber having difficulty cutting through anything not a lightsaber or a 10-inch-thick blast door. That part is definitely right. I'm just trying to think of ways to make a high-ST lightsaber fighter more practical.

OK then.
Allow people with lightsabers to use the Beat action against each other and some can buy up striking ST only for beats. That should be worth -80% (1 weapon, 1 non damaging tactic).
Beat is a kind of feint but relies on superior ST to push the weapon or shield out of the way rather then deception (like Ruse or a normal feint) to trick them to maneuver out of position.

EDIT: This fits some of the battles in the movies as well. And it has the advantage of making in game logic since a lightsaber can block another one rather then just go through it like everything else.

[vicky_molokh]

How about: Make effective Light-Sabre weight be calculated based on the user's BL. Make 'break' results indicate that a strike was so forceful that it gets through the parry (partially or fully, either as a penalty, or as minor, glancing damage to the target)?